Regional Divisions

[IsleofWight_Bee]

if national football is so attractive, why did only 300 bees fans make the trip to darlington?

after all, ten days ago (when fans would have been planning this trip) we were on an unbeaten run.

i think the nostalgia comes from watching teams like accrington, having a pint and a pie and a day out with the lads --- but only for a very few who can afford the time and cash.

i am sure there would have been 1,000 plus bees fans if we had been playing any of the southern teams!

and far more atmosphere too.

Just unfortunate that we had 3 away games in a week - due to a postponement! This is a bad idea going nowhere. Tested before and failed!!

 

[wayfarer172]

In the old days of the 3rd Division South and North (which I just remember) it was far more difficult to travel about the country by road than it is now. Our splendid motorway network had not been built ! Consequently, it was not just the cost that dictated that old set up.

It also meant that only one team could be promoted from each of the regional 3rd divisions (to Brentford's cost when they finished 2nd to Brighton). Only two teams were relegated/promoted in those days)

Further difficulties were caused when, for example, two southern teams were relegated from the old second division, which meant that the most northerly team currently in the 3rd division,south would then have to "transfer" to the northern division for the following season, so teams in the midlands could be "south" one season and "north" the next, or vice-verca.

I would not want a return of the "old days"; like others in this thread the "joy" of travelling to distant grounds adds to the fun; but living in "the midlands", I would say that, wouldn't I ?

You are 100% right in your comments. I also remember well the old 3rd division south and north days,.
I've always maintained that a fairer way would be to have automatic promotion and relegation all round and scrap the farce of play offs. . Ok I know the play offs are a money spinner for the involved clubs but , but what a heartbreak it is if you work hard all season to finish3rd with lets say 82pts and get beaten at wembly by the team finishing 7th who got 70 pts over the seson. Apart from the extra money involved I've always hated play offs. Look at our record in recent years in play offs.

 

[Wee Dave]

I've been banging on about this for ages. I think regionalising Leagues 1 & 2 makes sound financial sense. Selfishly, it would mean I would go to more away games. It would mean more derbies, too.

You could even go further and include the jocks 'n all. Then a English / Scottish Championship and Premiership.

 

[londondude]

It could be a good idea - saves on the trips to places like hartlepool and accrington

 

[beesbarmyarmy89]

It could be a good idea - saves on the trips to places like hartlepool and accrington

Them trips make an away day though. :thetruth:

 

[Wee Dave]

Them trips make an away day though. :thetruth:

We'd still get hefty away days. The likes of Yeovil, Swansea, Torquay etc.

 

[Edmundo]

I've been banging on about this for ages. I think regionalising Leagues 1 & 2 makes sound financial sense. Selfishly, it would mean I would go to more away games. It would mean more derbies, too.

I still don't see why it makes any financial sense whatsoever. Saving a few bob on coach travel hardly makes up for the loss of involvement at the end of the season by having fewer promotion places up for grabs, fewer play-off places up for grabs and fewer relegation spots to worry about. And a few extra away fans isn't going to make much of a difference in the big scheme of things.

 

[Wee Dave]

You could get round that - top of head -

Say you've a league 1 south and north.

Winners of each up automatically.
Second places play each other, one goes up.
Third to Sixth go into an eight-team knockout play off tournament, winner goes up.

 

[Edmundo]

I guess we aren't likely to agree on this. I really can't see any merit in the idea and saving a few bob on travel so that we can play Cheltenham and Yeovil more often than Forest and Leeds isn't going to sway me.

 

[Wee Dave]

I guess we aren't likely to agree on this. I really can't see any merit in the idea and saving a few bob on travel so that we can play Cheltenham and Yeovil more often than Forest and Leeds isn't going to sway me.

It also means we would play big southern teams more than small northern teams. Cuts both ways. There are probably (he says without calculation) as many "big teams" in the south as in the north. So it invalidates your argument I think :scratch:

 

[NorthamptonBee]

Stop it now, being a Brentford supporter is meant to be painful so trips to Port Vale and Rochdale are all part and parcel of it. If you southern softies want a day by the sea in Torquay or Bournemouth then do it, I enjoy Macclesfield on a Tuesday night even if Butcher's team didn't.

 

[nick logan]

I guess we aren't likely to agree on this. I really can't see any merit in the idea and saving a few bob on travel so that we can play Cheltenham and Yeovil more often than Forest and Leeds isn't going to sway me.

:thetruth:

 

[Gazza Bee]

Definite no to this idea, myself and I'm sure many other fans want to visit as many grounds as possible in the hope of making the 92 club. Regionalising the divisions would kill off this possibility Would be boring if we played the same teams year in, year out

 

[Stanley]

if regionalisation is so good how come the conference was formed into a national league and has been quite successful to as effectively Divison 5.

What you might save on travel etc you would probably lose on prestige which comes with it better sponsorship, TV coverage and fan appeal.

I doubt if Darlington get more than 300 fans from any number of Northern clubs they play...

 

[blunstone]

i believe you will find transporting and accommodating 20+ players, officials and back-up staff on away trips to the north adds up to more than 'a few bob', edmundo. mark will know for sure.

i think you will find that we get far more than 150 extra away visitors when the opposition is, say, bristol rovers, bournemouth, brighton, swindon, gillingham, luton, etc etc

and they are more atractive fixtures for floating bees fans than, example only, accrington stanley or wrexham at home.

those who are trying to do all the league clubs won't have followed brentford to man u or newcastle or everton or arsenal or villa or many others for a while will they? but they can still watch a match at the ground if that is their fancy.

 

[NorthamptonBee]

I take it you have never seen us win at Huddersfield and that you weren't there at Blackburn. Take that away from us and you will have half the club that we currently are, get off your lazy backsides and sample the complete Brentford experience.

 

[Hairy]

im all for it well bored if sh*tty northern outposts so dont bother with away games, if we had more southern teams in our league id go more

 

[NorthamptonBee]

im all for it well bored if sh*tty northern outposts so dont bother with away games, if we had more southern teams in our league id go more

Another reason for it being a bad idea.

 

[Wee Dave]

I take it you have never seen us win at Huddersfield and that you weren't there at Blackburn. Take that away from us and you will have half the club that we currently are, get off your lazy backsides and sample the complete Brentford experience.

I saw us win at Carlisle about nine years ago. I was one of less than 100 bees there. I'd only gone because I lived in Edinburgh at the time.

 

[Willo]

If it wasn't for National leagues I would never have been to lovely places like Accrington, Macclesfield and Carlisle :love2:

 

[VTG]

Look at Accrington Stanley when they went to Rotherham on the weekend. They took 105 and it's only 60-odd miles. How is regionalising it going to improve things like that? It'll only fragment the league structure further as it is, as you end up with a cream of Northern and Southern teams never facing each other but dominating the top sections of their respective leagues, and the rest of the places filled with teams who can't compete that have been merged from the division lower to make up enough numbers.
I think no matter the distance (unless it's like Everton/Liverpool) you'll get the same amount of away fans at a match wherever it is, because the people who want to go will go no matter the distance and the people who don't ever go away still won't go away even if it's only an hour's drive.
Sure, travel costs more for clubs, but that's something that should be funded by the people with the big money instead of small clubs on a shoestring. There's too much money at the top, not enough of a trickle down, but this isn't the way to solve it.

Plus we have better teams down south anyway so it'd be harder to go up

 

[NorthamptonBee]

I saw us win at Carlisle about nine years ago. I was one of less than 100 bees there. I'd only gone because I lived in Edinburgh at the time.

There you go, I bet you'll never forget it so you agree with me now then.

 

[keefor]

I guess we aren't likely to agree on this. I really can't see any merit in the idea and saving a few bob on travel so that we can play Cheltenham and Yeovil more often than Forest and Leeds isn't going to sway me.

IMO it is pointless putting into the equation teams like Forest and Leeds. They just happen to be in lower leagues at present so it is worthless to base an argument on that. In 5 years time they could well be out of the lower leagues and 'southern' teams such as Crystal Palace and Southampton could be kicking around in lower leagues.

Even a simple look at away followings in the lower leagues will show you that more away fans go to shorter journeys than go on longer journeys. I think that there is an argument about numbers involved with promotion/relegation but surely that is separate, it is not intrinsic to northern/southern leagues.

The vast majority of smaller clubs are struggling badly. Regionalisation would increase away gates and could bring in more money as well as cutting down on travel costs.

 

[nick logan]

I saw us win at Carlisle about nine years ago. I was one of less than 100 bees there. I'd only gone because I lived in Edinburgh at the time.

we had more than that mate. Promotion season 250 at least. We even had 200 there last xmas when we were bottom and worst side ever.

 

[nick logan]

Leave well alone, one of the biggest pleasures in life is a mad northern away day. If anyone takes that away from me i would be gutted. Everyone i know is looking forward to Morecombe cos it will be great and the journey adds to it. Bollox to being stuck with Luton and co, give me Accy, Darlo and Carlisle any day.

 

[Willo]

Leave well alone, one of the biggest pleasures in life is a mad northern away day. If anyone takes that away from me i would be gutted. Everyone i know is looking forward to Morecombe cos it will be great and the journey adds to it. Bollox to being stuck with Luton and co, give me Accy, Darlo and Carlisle any day.

One of the great pleasures watching the Bees is turning up to some pub miles from anyway and seeing Bees fans in there

 

[Wee Dave]

Promotion season 250 at least.

No blinkin' way lol

 

[West Ealing Bee]

we had more than that mate. Promotion season 250 at least. We even had 200 there last xmas when we were bottom and worst side ever.

No blinkin' way lol

We won there in 98 when we went down and 99 when we went back up.

I went in 99 and there were at least 200 there, didn't go in 98 so can't say how many were there but have never seen less than 100 Bees fans at any Saturday away game in my time.

 

[NorthamptonBee]

but have never seen less than 100 Bees fans at any Saturday away game in my time.

Port Vale last season? I don't know for sure but there were not very many.

 

[Low End Bee]

Rubbish idea. End of.

 

[West Ealing Bee]

Port Vale last season? I don't know for sure but there were not very many.

143

http://www.brentfordfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/MatchReport/0,,10421~33397,00.html

 

[blunstone]

143. i think that is game set and match!

and how many at say, swindon or luton or even northampton?

 

[upnorthbee]

143. i think that is game set and match!

and how many at say, swindon or luton or even northampton?

Hardly game set and match is it, conveniance is not what Brentfords about. I go to my fair share of home games when i can and i enjoy doing so. I don't think you understand what some people are saying, it's about experience not conveniance surely.

 

[JBN]

I'm all for regional divisions, build that wall back up, lob the Jocks back over it. Cut off Wales and float it of into the Atlantic.

Regional divisions sorted

 

[NorthamptonBee]

143. i think that is game set and match!

and how many at say, swindon or luton or even northampton?

143 people who sung and tried to get the team going, we played well and lost 1-0 to a last minute goal but the crowd appreciated the effort and clapped them off. Now free travel to Cheltenham made 1,000+ tightwads make the journey and they moaned and booed all night, now it was crap but awaydayers now how to behave at these events. I remember thinking that I wouldn't bother if all the moaning old gits were there every week, the GPG is the place to moan and the game is where you try and get behind them. Our away games are special and made more special by the fact the fact that it's time and trouble to get to them unless you prefer the disinfected remote control Premiership way to follow football. I give up with you now.

 

[londondude]

Much prefer the shorter trips to the longer ones but it might just be me

 

[Les Beeavinu]

143. i think that is game set and match!

and how many at say, swindon or luton or even northampton?

Live on Sky game on a Tuesday night. How many would have gone to Luton in similar circumstances?

 

[NorthamptonBee]

Live on Sky game on a Tuesday night. How many would have gone to Luton in similar circumstances?

That was under Allen on a monday, this was under Fitz and we were as good as down.

 

[keefor]

Away games are nearly always better because all of the fans are grouped together so singing and chanting are concentrated as opposed to home games where the same fans are more dispersed.

However, the argument for regionalised lower leagues is valid IMO for financial reasons. The more away fans that travel the better the finances for the club. From a financial point of view I would much rather see 800+ away fans at GP even if they hardly made a sound compared to 100 who sang all game.

I've looked up some stats from http://www.tonykempster.co.uk
and http://www.thefootballforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=121230

Our top 3 aways for league games so far have been;

Tues 12th Feb at Barnet - 1107. Distance 15 miles. Number represents 24.73% of our average home gate.
Tuesday 1st Jan at Dagenham - 913. Distance 24 miles. 20.93%
Sun. 9th Sept at Wycombe - 827. Distance 30 miles. 18.47%

Our smallest aways for Saturday league games so far have been;

Sat 15th Dec at Wrexham - 122. Distance 201 miles. 2.73%
Sat 3rd Nov at Bradford - 184. Distance 201 miles. 3.13%
Sat 20th Oct at Rochdale - approx. 250. 222 miles. 5.58%

IMO all clubs will have some fans who do travel to long distance aways but equally all clubs will have even more fans who will travel to the shorter distance aways.

Anyway once we are in the Championship we won't have to worry about regionalised away games. We'll be able to travel the length and breadth of the country.

 

[Les Beeavinu]

That was under Allen on a monday, this was under Fitz and we were as good as down.

Oh I see. So I should say who would have gone to Luton to watch a relegated team.

 

[NorthamptonBee]

Oh I see. So I should say who would have gone to Luton to watch a relegated team.

Que?

 

[nick logan]

143. i think that is game set and match!

and how many at say, swindon or luton or even northampton?

Most people agree with us, it can't and wont happen. It would spoil one of my main enjoyments of football. The sense of acheivment of going to away days miles away is great. The 200 who sang non stop at Carlisle last year will always remember it as will those who requested their ma to put the champagne on ice as we are going to Accrington twice. lol

 

[nick logan]

143 people who sung and tried to get the team going, we played well and lost 1-0 to a last minute goal but the crowd appreciated the effort and clapped them off. Now free travel to Cheltenham made 1,000+ tightwads make the journey and they moaned and booed all night, now it was crap but awaydayers now how to behave at these events. I remember thinking that I wouldn't bother if all the moaning old gits were there every week, the GPG is the place to moan and the game is where you try and get behind them. Our away games are special and made more special by the fact the fact that it's time and trouble to get to them unless you prefer the disinfected remote control Premiership way to follow football. I give up with you now.

spot on.

 

[Les Beeavinu]

Que?

Bluntstone Babe seems to think that hundreds would've turned up if the game was local. I made the wrong point that the crowd was low because it was on Sky - you correctly stated that it was because we were relegated. I don't think hundreds would've turned up in either of those circumstances.

 

[nick logan]

Away games are nearly always better because all of the fans are grouped together so singing and chanting are concentrated as opposed to home games where the same fans are more dispersed.

However, the argument for regionalised lower leagues is valid IMO for financial reasons. The more away fans that travel the better the finances for the club. From a financial point of view I would much rather see 800+ away fans at GP even if they hardly made a sound compared to 100 who sang all game.

I've looked up some stats from http://www.tonykempster.co.uk
and http://www.thefootballforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=121230

Our top 3 aways for league games so far have been;

Tues 12th Feb at Barnet - 1107. Distance 15 miles. Number represents 24.73% of our average home gate.
Tuesday 1st Jan at Dagenham - 913. Distance 24 miles. 20.93%
Sun. 9th Sept at Wycombe - 827. Distance 30 miles. 18.47%

Our smallest aways for Saturday league games so far have been;

Sat 15th Dec at Wrexham - 122. Distance 201 miles. 2.73%
Sat 3rd Nov at Bradford - 184. Distance 201 miles. 3.13%
Sat 20th Oct at Rochdale - approx. 250. 222 miles. 5.58%

IMO all clubs will have some fans who do travel to long distance aways but equally all clubs will have even more fans who will travel to the shorter distance aways.

Anyway once we are in the Championship we won't have to worry about regionalised away games. We'll be able to travel the length and breadth of the country.

How will us having a better away support at a few games a season help us financially?

 

[keefor]

How will us having a better away support at a few games a season help us financially?

I included our away figures as an illustration of the impact of the effect of distance travelled on away support. I would expect this to be the case with all other teams.

Therefore if lower leagues were regionalised all clubs could expect to see an increase in away fans visiting them. If Brentford were to play more Southern based clubs we would see more away supporters at GP. This would financially benefit the club.

 

[Markybee]

I think it's a rubbish idea personally. The Conference seems OK as a national league. We'd end up always playing the same southern teams and never get a crack at Sheffield Wednesday, Nottingham Forest or Leeds United. Playing the same teams year after year would not IMHO increase gates all that much as less interest would be generated. There would be fewer promotion places and this would hit gates. Fewer relegation places would make teams lazy. Any savings in travel and accommodation would be spent on something else, probably a striker with two left feet.

311 at Darlington yesterday - I bet that stacks up quite well against what plenty of northern teams take there.

I'm sorry but I truly think this is an idea without merit.

The Darlington Press Box chap said Accy took 2!!! Yes 2!

 

[Sweepy]

Forget regionalisation because it wont solve the problems it is intended to. Every club will continue to spend above its means to keep up with the next club.

This club has needed to spend more than it could afford for years to keep up with the likes of Luton and Bournemouth, both of which are now paying the price for their own financial mismanagement.

I used to be for regionalisation, but in truth it wont sort out football's financial injustices.

 

[Jakalo]

I included our away figures as an illustration of the impact of the effect of distance travelled on away support. I would expect this to be the case with all other teams.

Therefore if lower leagues were regionalised all clubs could expect to see an increase in away fans visiting them. If Brentford were to play more Southern based clubs we would see more away supporters at GP. This would financially benefit the club.

I've just seen you live in Southampton. No bloody wonder you're for it! Still though I'm sure many Bees fans down your way do the missions up north.

Carlisle away - always in my heart.

 

[Brentford St George]

I saw us win at Carlisle about nine years ago. I was one of less than 100 bees there. I'd only gone because I lived in Edinburgh at the time.

I was at that game and we won 2-1 if my memory serves me correct.We had much more than 100 fans there :scratch: