Sendings off

[Paul O'Brien]

There seems to be a trend this season to have the opposition sent off at GP. Last night's match was (is it the fifth?) match this year where the opponents have finished a man short.

Now, it seems to me that some of that is down to dives by us - it's almost a tactic. And if that's the case, I don't like it. Apart from the cheating element, it also cheats the fans because it often spoils an enjoyable match.

Okay, maybe it's just coincidence, and it's not deliberate. But...

How do others feel?

 

[Edmundo]

What dives?

 

[j4yc3e]

yeah i was thinking that last night after bennet was sent off, not the diving mind.

i think that the hostile crowd may influence the refs decission and maybe sometime the sendings off are a bit harsh but if the opposition is gonna cheat then this is what happens

 

[Mr Tree]

so that's the "Cauldron of Hate" theory then j4cy3e?

i haven't seen much this season but i wouldn't say we're divers...

 

[JimP]

All the sending-offs (sendings-off?) I've seen have looked pretty justified. Last night's guy was admittedly unlucky to get booked for the first tackle but the second one was completely cynical. DJ had made him look a mug and he just took him out. I'd have sent him off just for that one challenge... probably just as well I'm not a ref.

In fact there were several occasions last night when I thought our players had the chance to go down in the box (excuse the phrase!) and would have had a good shout for a penalty but stayed on their feet. I don't think we're divers...maybe just refs are getting harsher.

 

[Simon C]

If you're on a yellow card don't grab your opponents shirts.

 

[LboroBee]

what are the ones? Here are the home games and who 'caused' the red card, that I can remember:

yesterday - DJ - because of speed
Swansea - Tillen - because of speed - EDIT or was it Owusu?
Oldham FAC - DJ - because of speed & a crunching tackle but unlucky to get a red I thought, even tho he was already on a yellow.
Swindon - Fitz i think - last minute block to stop our guy running through on goal in a 0-0 draw, so deserved to go.

any others?

 

[Crazeechris]

Yeovil, when the keeper was sent off - caused by DJ's pace again.

 

[Stuardo]

but can i sadly point out that our record v 10 men is appalling this year:

Blackpool - played v 10 men for an hour. No goals scored in a 0-0.
Yeovil - 2-1 up, their keeper goes, they pull it back to 2-2, 87th minute winner by us
Swansea - played v 10 men for about an hour. scraped a 2-1 win
Huddersfield - v 10 men (admittedly Frampton then walked too): they score 2 goals to win 3-2
Forest - played v 10 men for about an hour. No goals, 1-1 draw.

So, if you want to be a little bit harsh. Our record v 10 men is (in 3.5 hours of football or so)

P4 W2 D2 L0 F3 A4

against 10 men you have to pick up all the points! can't fault the boys last night though - the goal just wouldn't come and it was a fantastic block on the line by Morgan in the last minute.

 

[The H]

perhaps its because every team comes to GP to get a point and will stop at nothing to foul our players :scratch:

 

[j4yc3e]

perhaps its because every team comes to GP to get a point and will stop at nothing to foul our players :scratch:

 

[Stanley]

Most of the sendings off are due to DJ and others getting past their man and beating them for pace or on the turn. Not a dive amongst them ...unlike their no 8 last night.

 

[nocoat]

Fiver bookings last night, is that a fine??

 

[Nffcben]

I didnt like the divig either. It wasnt a sending off i agree the second one was a booking. But he made out he'd bin rugby tackled. i also didnt like our time wasting during the substitutions but what do you expect down to ten men

 

[mhead bee]

Another total bollox thread I am afraid. Maybe its got something to do with having an outstanding young talented centre forward who runs defences ragged and their only option is to try to kick him off the pitch.

If you want to point the finger at cheating why not look at the ***** who dived twice last night and never got a free kick (nor a booking) off the ref/ How about the lack of sportmanship taking 4 minutes to make 1 substitution going totally unpunished.

 

[Beesnut]

I didnt like the divig either. It wasnt a sending off i agree the second one was a booking. But he made out he'd bin rugby tackled. i also didnt like our time wasting during the substitutions but what do you expect down to ten men

There's a fine line between diving and drawing the foul. Play acting once you've got the foul just makes you look a plonker. Like Grant Holt (how much did you pay for him, because it was a complete waste by the looks of it). And your number 8.

Dudley draws fouls by turning quickly and going over their legs. Not diving. If you turn quickly, miss their legs and go down, that's diving.

 

[mhead bee]

. Last night's guy was admittedly unlucky to get booked for the first tackle .

I thought it was for consistent fouling more than anything. We had been upended several times by then.

Judging by the fact that tabby did a couple of dodgy ones before being booked and by the letter of the law (no matter how silly it seems) sodje and george could have walked, we were given the rub of the green by the ref. I have seen players sent off for both these before!

 

[The H]

I have seen players sent off for both these before!

only by really biased/incompetent refs though

 

[GP200]

DJ is just too quick,and the away centre half lumps don't know how to deal with him.....

 

[mhead bee]

only by really biased/incompetent refs though

that goes without saying!

 

[sussexb]

I don't think it's down to diving from us - if anything we don't do it enough! A couple of weeks ago Turner got clattered and was back on his feet in seconds, for example, and that seems to be our general approach. It's not very often you see one of our players rolling around or clutching their face etc...

As for last night - I thought the guy sent off was unlucky - but only for his first yellow. Overall NF were lucky not to have more booked, imo. Eg. their number 8 who had a kick at Sodje just after the sending off, and a couple of their defenders who brought down players running at goal (lloyd once, dj once...).

I thought the ref was atrocious. But as for the Notts Forest fan saying WE were diving. That's just rubbish.

 

[Claire]

but its not like we ever use the sending off as an advantage.

 

[Paul O'Brien]

Another total bollox thread I am afraid.

No way. What makes your opinion so great that you can insult what I believe to be a valid point? Which bit do you disagree with -

a) We've seen a lot of opposition players sent off this season at GP - don't think you can disagree with that
b) It seems to me that some of that is down to dives by us - yes, it does seem to me that there might be an element of that. I'm not saying it's a fact, it's just my opinion.
c) If it's diving, it's cheating - and that applies whoever dives: the dives by NF yesterday were appalling.
d) Sendings-off can ruin a match.
e) It couild be coincidence, and it might not be deliberate. Undeniable.

Now run along, you silly little man, and vent your spleen elsewhere.

 

[Edmundo]

The problem with your post, Paul, is point b. I suppose I can't deny that it's your opinion if it really is your opinion, but it's just plain wrong as far as I can see. Someone has listed the sendings-off and I don't remember any of those I saw as being anything other than fouls. And I really don't think we have any divers in our team. Compare and contrast Kris Commons last night, who exaggerated every contact on him, with Jay Tabb, who was mowed down by a really crude tackle - but as it didn't actually hurt him he picked himself straight up and got on with it, probably saving the NF player a yellow card in the process.

 

[Mr Tree]

i'd agree with Ed, from what i know. also, consider...

but its not like we ever use the sending off as an advantage.

which is very fair and true, so why would we dive to get people sent off? :laugh:

 

[BeesfanBen]

What a load of nonsense! Oppsoition players get correctly dismissed and we have a 'fan' complaining! Next you'll be arguing that half of our goals have been offside! Presumably your preferred spot in the stadium is Ealing Road!

 

[Garybaldbee]

I can't recall off hand any of the red cards against us this season being a result of anything else other than a genuine foul, but there is no doubt that a couple of our players do, erm, well, 'go down a little easily' (Bigbee can insert his own joke here). No more so, admittedly, than many other players elsewhere but just because Rankin or DJ happen to be wearing a red and white shirt that doesn't make it any more palatable. Cheating is cheating. We can't condemn in others what we condone with a knowing wink from our own players.

 

[Edmundo]

I just don't see it though, Garybaldbee. I don't like cheating but I don't think it's just my red 'n' white tinted glasses that means I don't think any of our players are divers.

 

[West Ealing Bee]

From memory we have had 4 players sent off agianst us fpr fouls on Campbell, Huddersfield, Oldham, Forest, Yeovil.

IMHO Campbell is not a cheat, he is quick and slight and takes a lot of knocks, when he gets a touch it throws him off balance and he goes down. Very rarely have I seen him overplay anything.

Watch what happens when a sprinter pulls a muscle during a race, they go flying, Campbell moves so quickly he gets affected in the same way.

Now Hunt, he was a diver

 

[Edmundo]

Now Hunt, he was a diver

I used to think so, but having had the chance to view footage of his most famous "dives" against Bournemouth and Southampton, I think he has been wronged.

 

[West Ealing Bee]

I used to think so, but having had the chance to view footage of his most famous "dives" against Bournemouth and Southampton, I think he has been wronged.

We'll agree to disagree.

IMHO if he did some of the things he did for us, against us, he would be hated at this club.

 

[Garybaldbee]

I just don't see it though, Garybaldbee. I don't like cheating but I don't think it's just my red 'n' white tinted glasses that means I don't think any of our players are divers.

I watch games through a red and white filter like the rest of us and I'm not for one moment suggesting that we have anybody as blatent as Hunt on the books any more. But our players are not uniquely angelic and I can recall a few occassions when Rankin for one has gone over and its been almost embarrassing - was it against Port Vale last year when he won us a penalty, a sending off and effectively the game with a very very soft decision?

The problem of course is that we're all hypocrites - and I'm as bad as anybody else. If DJ stumbles over his own legs in the 90th minute of the play off final and the ref points to the spot I won't be worrying about the justice of the decision any more than the rest. Its very sad and I deeply regret my own shallowness but I suppose all I'm really trying to say is that players cheat the world over and its naive to believe that the only ones who don't do so play in TW8. That being the case neither do I really see the point of slagging off opposition players who do exactly the same thing.

 

[Billy Hunt]

That being the case neither do I really see the point of slagging off opposition players who do exactly the same thing.

Slagging off the opposition, for any reason, is jolly good fun.

 

[Garybaldbee]

Slagging off the opposition, for any reason, is jolly good fun.

Point taken

 

[Paul O'Brien]

I think I would differentiate first of all between those who 'go down a little too easily' and those who stay down writhing in agony and then bounce up as though nothing had happened; something we've seen from other teams far too often at GP. We've had the former on our own side: I know that Hunt was seen by some people as a diver who got us a number of valuable penalties. However, to my knowledge we do not, and never have had, one of the latter.

A typical player of the first group, would be Michael Owen or Andy Johnson. They are seen by many fans other than Liverpool/Newcastle/Palace fans – including many people where I work – as excellent players who dive. They don't stay down, but there is a distinct tendency to go down when there has been minimal or no contact.

The reason why I raised the topic is that over the course of this season I've thought, and heard others around me at matches commenting, that Tabb is going down a bit more easily than he has previously done; DJ of course is an unknown quantity in these terms. I've also done a check and found a few comments in match reports that xxxx has dived; at the same time, I've also seen comments from opponents' fansites that we're divers – just as we would comment if we felt opponents spend too much time on the floor.

And while, looking back at my original post, it looked as though I was saying that the 'fouls' for which players were sent off weren't fouls but dives by our players, that wasn't my intention. I was suggesting that if we were 'diving', it contributes to the referee booking a player because he sees that side as consistently fouling – that applies even if the foul he's booking the player wasn't a result of a dive.

I hope I'm wrong; I hope that Tabb etc going down is entirely down to their great speed and skill.

Here's a list of opponents sent off against us this season:

Home
Ifil (Swindon)
Weale (Yeovil)
Owen (Oldham)
Tate (Swansea)
Bennett (Forest)

Away
Reid (Barnsley)
Clarke (Huddersfield)
Wright (Blackpool)
Goodwin (Scunthorpe)

That's nine. We've had Frampton, Hutch and Campbell sent off. Three against nine: quite an imbalance.

So, is it purely because we now have a bit of extra skill in our ranks, or is it something else?

 

[Simon C]

Usually you have more players sent off away than you do at home. Don't ask me why but a ref should be able to tell you. You also tend to see more players go when you're losing. Our away record is actually very impressive so put that together and you have one reason why our reds are so low.

 

[The H]

But our players are not uniquely angelic and I can recall a few occassions when Rankin for one has gone over and its been almost embarrassing - was it against Port Vale last year when he won us a penalty, a sending off and effectively the game with a very very soft decision?

vs Port Vale :yes:

i'm not sure he was looking for a penalty, just the fact that he fell over easily... it was a very strange decision, but i don't think he 'dived'.

 

[The H]

That's nine. We've had Frampton, Hutch and Campbell sent off. Three against nine: quite an imbalance.

So, is it purely because we now have a bit of extra skill in our ranks, or is it something else?

coz we play total football and dominate every game we play in, meaing that we don't have to foul to get the ball

 

[Paul O'Brien]

coz we play total football and dominate every game we play in, meaing that we don't have to foul to get the ball

If only. I'd love to see Cruyff, Neeskens, Krol etc playing for us - even at their age today!

 

[KGB]

Got to say that I thought Rankin fell over v easily last season by just losing his balance & got a number of fouls & penalties - not necessarily sendings off.

The one thing that we don't seem to do that a lot of others do do - often surprisingly from the 'hard' north - is writhe in agony for minutes after a tackle. This definitely influences referees & several times this season has produced a booking when the referee has shown no previous inclination to book the player. Our 'arch hard man' Paul Brooker suffered in this way very recently.

On Tuesday I thought that Bennett was silly to commit the second foul. He was unlucky with the first which I didn't feel was a card. Interestingly for that first tackle Rankin went down, rolled over, rubbed his shin briefly, got up & got on with the game.

 

[j4yc3e]

another 2 sendings off a gp today.....

im gonna start putting money on reds

 

[readingbee]

Paul, would you like DJ to slow down a bit

 

[West Ealing Bee]

I'm not 100% sure Campbell didn't dive today.

 

[WarrenBee]

I'm not 100% sure Campbell didn't dive today.

Your point being??

 

[Silly Chip]

.

Now Hunt, he was a diver

Christ I do hope you don't get elected! Now take your big ego and shove off!

 

[West Ealing Bee]

Your point being??

The discussion started with a point about whether Campbell 'went down too easily'.

I thought in general he didn't, I'm not sure about today's incident though.

 

[West Ealing Bee]

Christ I do hope you don't get elected! Now take your big ego and shove off!

Good evening to you too Silly Chip

What has my comment about a player got to do with a place on the board, I think you are confusing the role somewhat

 

[Wurzel Gummidge]

I wasnt in the best place to to see, but as the keeper was in the middle of the pitch then if DJ could have stayed up he would have been straight in on goal.

Surely you would take a goal rather than the possibility of a player being sent off.

 

[Billy Hunt]

I'm not 100% sure Campbell didn't dive today.

I am 100% sure that I don't care whether he dived or not.

Now take your big ego and shove off!

Oh yeah, take your big egg and shove it off a wall. Then ask some royally connected horses and men to re-assemble it. I bet you they can't.

 

[Edmundo]

I hope when I see the replay that DJ didn't dive, though that was my first reaction when it happened. I don't care that much, mind you, as Huddersfield are a nasty team and got what they deserved.