The Manager Debacle
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JBN
In Training
The Manager Debacle
Am I that close the target?
I have drawn a conclusion from what has been put on the GPG or appeared elsewhere.
It appears that there was a prefered candidate and the prefered candidate didn't get the job. Patterson has said he was suprised as he believed he was in the running.
I have assumed that the group of 4 put the preferred candidate up as their number one choice and it was rejected in favour of Fitz.
Making money available for new faces is not a bad way of trying to focus our minds on other things either is it?
The Manager Debacle
Did he? I'm sure he said that he turned the job down because of the terms of contract.
I suppose that the terms could have been made to ensure that he would turn it down.
Oh well, I'm convinced that had Patterson taken the job many supporters would have been up in arms because he wasn't known or fitting the criteria and would have said you may as well have given it to Fitz.
JBN
In Training
The Manager Debacle
Did he? I'm sure he said that he turned the job down because of the terms of contract.
I suppose that the terms could have been made to ensure that he would turn it down.
Oh well, I'm convinced that had Patterson taken the job many supporters would have been up in arms because he wasn't known or fitting the criteria and would have said you may as well have given it to Fitz.
If Patterson turned the job down, then I take it everything back. I thought, that he believed he was "in negotiation".
alexinho
Active member
The Manager Debacle
Did he? I'm sure he said that he turned the job down because of the terms of contract.
I suppose that the terms could have been made to ensure that he would turn it down.
Oh well, I'm convinced that had Patterson taken the job many supporters would have been up in arms because he wasn't known or fitting the criteria and would have said you may as well have given it to Fitz.
This was the case on Beesotted Gee Bee - when fans heard the leaked announcement that Patterson was about to be given the job they were furious and calling for Dyke's head (strange given that he's a non-executive director but still...). The next day when Fitz was appointed, they were furious and calling for Dyke's head at having failed to bring in Patterson. Conclusion: some people only support a football team to have something to whinge about.
JBN
In Training
The Manager Debacle
You can please some of the people none of the time and all of the people none of the time.
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Mr Cynical
Moderator
The Manager Debacle
Exactly.. they must be desperately hoping Fitz makes a go of it and I'm sure he'll be given every chance by the board as abee has suggested elsewhere.... . However if it still goes tits up then there's going to be a lot of questions to be answered...
The thing that still sickens me about all this is that for once it looked like we were doing something professionally but yet again it descends into absolute farce. It doesnt seem to matter who gets involved, it always ends up the same....
The Manager Debacle
It appears to have been offered but negotiations broke down, so it might well have been that the goalposts were moved within the terms offered and those put in a contract?
Anyway the fact they offered him the job would appear surely that he had been rubber stamped?
McBee
Member
The Manager Debacle
As i was saying......
The negativity of the club does wind me up. Someone assumed they knew something and tell the world it's fact in code, thus making the whole club look like a bunch of c*nts.
Just another example.
Here comes the rumour mill......
jlove
Well-known member
The Manager Debacle
So this thread is about someone who may-or-may-not have turned down a postion that may-or-may-not have been offered by between one and four people who may-or-may-not have been over-ruled by between four and one person?
It's all clear now...
It's all clear now...
OP
OP
Downbeat Bee
Well-known member
The Manager Debacle
If this is true I would have thought some of those overrruled must have considered if they wanted to remain on the board
Referring to the 4 being overruled
JBN
In Training
The Manager Debacle
We now have Fitz, he has signed a few players to take our minds away from matters off field.
Bit concerned that two are on 1 month loans. Is a 1 month loan the same as a season long loan?
Bit concerned that two are on 1 month loans. Is a 1 month loan the same as a season long loan?
busheybee
Active member
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The Manager Debacle
If he was offered the job then, like most people in such a situation, he may have thought he had a bit of clout with which to negotiate on either money or terms. Maybe he chanced his arm and the panel caled his bluff and turned him down. Also with Fitz, if it does go wrong it's not cost much and presumably he's still got a job, if he wants one, albeit with the yoofs.
The Manager Debacle
Loans can be extended by month to month for up to 3 months and then it has to either be extended for the season or the player returns to his club.
All these can be done outside of the transfer window.
I see it as a way of not digging deep into availble funds. For example if they fail to impress or get injured their term can be short. Anyway both technically could be with us intil the beginning of April and by then we might be safe.
The Manager Debacle
If memory serves me right the Hounslow Chronicle suggested that Patterson may have turned down the job because of the wage cut he would have been expected to take if Brentford got relegated at the end of this season.
Mind you, considering the back pages they have produced over the last two weeks....
I used a smiley face!
Mind you, considering the back pages they have produced over the last two weeks....
I used a smiley face!
JBN
In Training
The Manager Debacle
I was thinking more along the lines of Onionbahjis 2 month loan which may not have been two months as were told, but realy a season long loan.
Should have added the fishing smilie.
Should have added the fishing smilie.
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Wee Dave
Freak
The Manager Debacle
London suddenly seems a whole lot more appealing to Mr Parky...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/charlton_athletic/6233617.stm
jlove
Well-known member
Wee Dave
Freak
The Manager Debacle
Nothing to do with money I suppose?
Well, obviously.
The point is that the whole "I want to be in the North" shtick actually just meant "if I am to come to London, it's not going to be to some flailing little club without a pot to piss in".
SpiderBee
Surrey Wyvern
alexinho
Active member
The Manager Debacle
On Banana's thread entitled 'Battle for Survival', Keith Dickens is quoted by Tony Flood as saying that Patterson turned us down because we were not prepared to match the length of contract that he wanted, instead offering him six months to take us through to the close season (presumably, and IMHO, sensibly, for reassessment of his suitability for the role taking into account whether or not he had managed to keep us up). Do any of the conspiracy theorists have anything to add or can we stop all this lazy gossiping?
Brickie Chap
Muppet Hunter
The Manager Debacle
I've not seen Keith Dickens say that anywhere else apart from Tony Floods report. I do not have confidence that Tony Flood is as accurate as he should/could be, certainly going on past efforts.
JBN
In Training
Mr Cynical
Moderator
The Manager Debacle
Nothing to do with money I suppose?
Well, let's face it, hardly anyone was going to take up the offer if it was just a 6 months contract available!! What a joke!
alexinho
Active member
The Manager Debacle
Well, let's face it, hardly anyone was going to take up the offer if it was just a 6 months contract available!! What a joke!
Why risk a longer contract on a totally unproven manager? We might have ended up relegated and saddled a) with a manager who we wished to get rid of, not to mention the payoff that getting rid of him would imply and b) paying a wage to our manager that was no longer appropriate under the new budget that we would have in league 2.
What other course of action would you suggest?
The Manager Debacle
I dont believe Alexinho has much faith in those who did the choosing
The Manager Debacle
Only that Patterson himself has said he was offered 2.5 year contract.
Dickens has said that he wanted a year and we only prepared to offer 6 months. Sounds to me more like he was offered 2.5 year contract which we would fulfill if we stayed up. However relegation could mean bye bye with no compensation, but Patterson would want a further 6 months if we failed to stay up, i,e guarantee him 1 years money.
alexinho
Active member
The Manager Debacle
Only that Patterson himself has said he was offered 2.5 year contract.
Dickens has said that he wanted a year and we only prepared to offer 6 months. Sounds to me more like he was offered 2.5 year contract which we would fulfill if we stayed up. However relegation could mean bye bye with no compensation, but Patterson would want a further 6 months if we failed to stay up, i,e guarantee him 1 years money.
I think we're saying the same thing re/ reassessment of his position in the close season and the inclusion of clauses in his contract relative to that. I can't fault it really, given the fact that we are currently up to our eyebrows in the brown stuff.
The Manager Debacle
Agreed, although that should have been made clear at any interview, rather than wait until any offer was on the table. Hopefully it was and Patterson just bottled it.
Brickie Chap
Muppet Hunter
The Manager Debacle
Didn't BFC advise all potential applicants that there would be no additional funds made available in Jan and that they would have to work with the existing squad....well that quickly changed didn't it...makes you think if any other goal posts were moved...and if so....when...
alexinho
Active member
The Manager Debacle
Was that before the fans made a kitty for transfer funds available through the fighting chance initiative?
Brickie Chap
Muppet Hunter
The Manager Debacle
Do you honestly believe that the only reason extra funds are now being freed up is down to the effort of the supporters?
alexinho
Active member
The Manager Debacle
No of course not but it has made a considerable difference to the funds which any new manager would have at his disposal. Agreed?
NorthamptonBee
Yes Boss
The Manager Debacle
Brickie Chap
Muppet Hunter
The Manager Debacle
Of course it has made a difference but have we missed out on a potentialy better manager by not advertising that they would have £25k(supporters funds) and whatever figure the club have put aside?
..Of course we didnt know at the start of the manager process (or did we, I cant remember) that the supporters funds would be there to spend.
alexinho
Active member
The Manager Debacle
My question relates precisely to the point at which the club would have been able to have any confidence in the fact that this initiative would yield 25k for transfers - surely it was well into the interview process. Given the rigid timeframe that was laid out (and bear in mind that they got a lot of flack for taking that much time anyway) they couldn't have begun it again when they realised that they were going to be able to offer the manager some transfer funds after all, could they? Not without coming in for a lot of criticism from some quarters. Maybe I have the wrong idea about the point at which it became apparent that the 'Fighting Chance' scheme had been a big success, and which stage of the process of appointing a new manager this coincided with, I'm not sure.
Les Beeavinu
Administrator
The Manager Debacle
I have been told that every manager interviewed was aware of the scheme and had discussed it. To what level, I don't know.
alexinho
Active member
The Manager Debacle
This is Keith Dickens' reply to my email asking him for clarification about Patterson's reasons for turning us down;
------------------------------------------
Thanks Alex, I note your comment re “I would also like to take this opportunity to reassure you that there are still, despite the continued negativity of a few, a great many Brentford fans who are realistic about the situation we are currently in, and the constraints it imposes on us in every sense”.
You’re probably aware that BIAS asked me a similar question in their open letter and I’m due to be meeting/talking with Phil, Tony et al sometime this week. Therefore, if you don’t mind, I’ll just take that opportunity to more fully explain and they can make it broadly available, as they deem appropriate. Meanwhile, in response to the specific point re Job Offer, a quick reply:
The limits of the package I could offer were pre agreed by the BFC Board, mindful of our Club’s situation. This included no contract offer with more than a 6 months’ notice period.
I had pre-checked with the League Managers’ Association what was reasonable re notice period and they said; “Generally, longer than 6 months notice periods are only made available for proven managers in the Premier and, a 6 months notice period is reasonable in the Football League”
The candidate you mentioned wanted a 12 month notice period. This (we were told) was the critical point.
As an aside, regarding the risk a club takes when appointing any manager (experienced, proven, tried & tested, a rescue-specialist, up and coming – that is, any profile), I am informed by the League Managers’ Association of the following interesting fact: “ Since the formation of the Premier League, any Football League Manager starting a new season in the Football League has a 67% likelihood of being dismissed by the following March” – so you could say that appointing any profile of manager is more likely to fail and it’s prudent for clubs not to over-commit scarce resources.
Best, Keith
------------------------------------------
Thanks Alex, I note your comment re “I would also like to take this opportunity to reassure you that there are still, despite the continued negativity of a few, a great many Brentford fans who are realistic about the situation we are currently in, and the constraints it imposes on us in every sense”.
You’re probably aware that BIAS asked me a similar question in their open letter and I’m due to be meeting/talking with Phil, Tony et al sometime this week. Therefore, if you don’t mind, I’ll just take that opportunity to more fully explain and they can make it broadly available, as they deem appropriate. Meanwhile, in response to the specific point re Job Offer, a quick reply:
The limits of the package I could offer were pre agreed by the BFC Board, mindful of our Club’s situation. This included no contract offer with more than a 6 months’ notice period.
I had pre-checked with the League Managers’ Association what was reasonable re notice period and they said; “Generally, longer than 6 months notice periods are only made available for proven managers in the Premier and, a 6 months notice period is reasonable in the Football League”
The candidate you mentioned wanted a 12 month notice period. This (we were told) was the critical point.
As an aside, regarding the risk a club takes when appointing any manager (experienced, proven, tried & tested, a rescue-specialist, up and coming – that is, any profile), I am informed by the League Managers’ Association of the following interesting fact: “ Since the formation of the Premier League, any Football League Manager starting a new season in the Football League has a 67% likelihood of being dismissed by the following March” – so you could say that appointing any profile of manager is more likely to fail and it’s prudent for clubs not to over-commit scarce resources.
Best, Keith
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Brickie Chap
Muppet Hunter
The Manager Debacle
He is good and its pleasing to see that all those years at P&G werent wasted lol
The Manager Debacle
That is how I read the situation and if Patterson expected a 1 year notice period when he is an untried manager at league level he showed little confidence in doing the job in hand.
The Manager Debacle
With the players he'd been left with? If he was starting with a clean slate I could understand your point but I think this was probably too much of a risk for him. He'll get another job, possibly at Oxford. Why risk ruining your career in 6 months here?
The Manager Debacle
But he was prepared to do that for an extra 6 months notice money. Hardly going to change his lifestyle 6 months of what BFC had to offer.
The Manager Debacle
But he was prepared to do that for an extra 6 months notice money. Hardly going to change his lifestyle 6 months of what BFC had to offer.
But it gives him 6 extra months to get sorted somewhere else. He'd either have to go back to being a coach or drop into non-league. I think someone posted he was quite likely to be on the same money as when he was made manager at Oxford so if he failed with us it'd be a pretty big drop in salary.
The Manager Debacle
Thats the point though, Brentford were prepared to give him 6 months notice, so he would have had 6 months to get himself sorted rather than a year. MA was only on 3 months notice, so I do not think that the notice period on offer to him was that bad, especially if you are confident in your own abilities, which I'm sure he must of shown if he "blew them away" at the ineterviews.
The Manager Debacle
What was the point of the whole application process, no one was going to ever accept a 6 months notice offer other than Fitz, already at the club. It was a complete waste of time and an insult to the fans pretending we were going to carry out a decent process.
The Manager Debacle
My point is I think he would have taken it in the summer but not know. I think he's confident enough to get another job where the dice aren't so loaded against him.
alexinho
Active member
The Manager Debacle
Er hang on a minute - the suggestion in the email above is that 6 months is standard notice period for an untried manager...
"Generally, longer than 6 months notice periods are only made available for proven managers in the Premier and, a 6 months notice period is reasonable in the Football League"
Even if you think that this is (to quote Brickie Chap) Proctor & Gamble style spin, what other options do you REALISTICALLY think the club had when it has its hands tied the way it currently does? Do you not get it? Had you read any of this thread before you posted?
Brickie Chap
Muppet Hunter
The Manager Debacle
Something just doesnt smell right about this. I wonder what Patterson's verison would be to all this?