The Truth

[eghambee]

This is not the only time England have gone into a World Cup thinking that they could be in the mix for the Cup itself, and then fallen away.

So what is the truth why this happens?

I'll start the debate.

The Premier League PR machine has convinced the majority of people in the country and around the world that it is the best league in the world.
And because of that, players salaries and status has gone through the roof.
And because of that, commentators , so called experts and the media ion general call a number of English players 'World Class'.
Even if some of the players had hit this height, it hasn't been recently - Champions League, Euro 2008 etc etc.
I question whether any of them are actually at that height.

To me a World Class player is a player that could be put in a team , not squad, from around the world.
Based on that , name any England players whose form over the last 2 years would have got in that World Team - remember you must think of players from around the world, not just Europe

Add the Germany team that demolished us to the likely winners of Brazil and Argentina or Spain , and ask how many of their players play in the Premier League?
And if the very best players don't play in the Premiership, how much easier is it for our players to shine?

Name one England player that will want a move to La Liga or be chased to go there? Maybe one, possibly two, but they probably won't go because the money is easy here.
The very best players do it in different leagues, and mainly not their home league.

A very wise coach i know said that English players will not become as technically good as other nations until the Academy systems are taken away from the clubs, because the clubs have their own agenda to produce fast powerful players for our leagues and do not encourage individual skill.
And then when kids get to 15 they are rejected when the foreign scouts send the new batch in.

Bottom line is that our Golden Age players have not been as good as the media has portrayed them and now the media will have a field day slaughtering them.

Over to you

 

[Simon T]

Have to agree with your assessment. If you look at the last 10-15 years most of the best players in the world end up playing for Real Madrid or Barcelona. It's hard to think of an English player that either team would want.

 

[macsalisbee]

we've been in 13 World Cup final stages-our record is 2 semis, 1 final (won). Pretty average. Yet every time England qualify for Euro or Wc, the media bang on about us going all the way. You can't blame the current set-up, this non-achievement has been going on for years. Fans have been force-fed a diet of bullshit about the Prem. The chickens have come home to roost

 

[BeesBloke]

Absolutely spot on.

 

[benfleetbee]

This is not the only time England have gone into a World Cup thinking that they could be in the mix for the Cup itself, and then fallen away.

So what is the truth why this happens?

I'll start the debate.

The Premier League PR machine has convinced the majority of people in the country and around the world that it is the best league in the world.
And because of that, players salaries and status has gone through the roof.
And because of that, commentators , so called experts and the media ion general call a number of English players 'World Class'.
Even if some of the players had hit this height, it hasn't been recently - Champions League, Euro 2008 etc etc.
I question whether any of them are actually at that height.

To me a World Class player is a player that could be put in a team , not squad, from around the world.
Based on that , name any England players whose form over the last 2 years would have got in that World Team - remember you must think of players from around the world, not just Europe

Add the Germany team that demolished us to the likely winners of Brazil and Argentina or Spain , and ask how many of their players play in the Premier League?
And if the very best players don't play in the Premiership, how much easier is it for our players to shine?

Name one England player that will want a move to La Liga or be chased to go there? Maybe one, possibly two, but they probably won't go because the money is easy here.
The very best players do it in different leagues, and mainly not their home league.

A very wise coach i know said that English players will not become as technically good as other nations until the Academy systems are taken away from the clubs, because the clubs have their own agenda to produce fast powerful players for our leagues and do not encourage individual skill.
And then when kids get to 15 they are rejected when the foreign scouts send the new batch in.

Bottom line is that our Golden Age players have not been as good as the media has portrayed them and now the media will have a field day slaughtering them.

Over to you

Does not need a debate. You have it in one.

 

[Infatuated Bees Alter Ego]

7M pounds a year sterling, Capello is earning ! and he thought England played well rofl He ain't going to go is he ! You'll have to sack him.
Get an Englishman in and use the money being spunked up the wall on his wage at grass roots level to improve young English players coming through.

 

[Jon]

All this is entirely fair, but let's not forget that these players, even if we agree they might not be as good as we think they are, have clearly not performed as well as we know they can in their club teams. This is the main reason for England's not going as far as we would hope.

I don't believe you can blame the players for that. If two or three underperform then that is probably down to them, but when this affects the entire squad then it had to be down to the manager.

 

[marlowbee]

Does not need a debate. You have it in one.

Only thing I disagree with is the fast and powerful players bit, don't think that applies to the England defence, slow as carthorses in my view, our passing and control is not the best either we always big up our players but when the big tournaments come we can't produce, I.E we ain't good as we think we are.

 

[bees66]

sadly we missed Rio in defence

 

[brooks]

sadly we missed Rio in defence

I disagree. Ferdinand has long been overated. A stopper with no vision. Maybe good in the Premierwhatnot but very ordinary and slow at international level. He was lucky he didn't play.

 

[bees66]

I disagree. Ferdinand has long been overated. A stopper with no vision. Maybe good in the Premierwhatnot but very ordinary and slow at international level. He was lucky he didn't play.

Carragher was poo, King was injured and as for Upson now do you see my point?:sad:

 

[Jon]

Let's consider now what the Bees were like under Terry Butcher. A sorry shower of crap heading towards the Conference, basically.

Now TB resigns and Andy Scott is the manager. The very next week, we are winning games and the whole team is transformed. A couple of months later, and we are using the P word. But my point is this: they are the same players.

It's easy for these managers like Capello or Ferguson to get results if they have millions of pounds available to bring the best players in - but what if they have to make the best of what they have? That's what it means to be a manager in the lower leagues, and it's also what it means if you are a national manager. There is more in common between managing Brentford and England than there is between managing Chelsea and England, if you ask me.

Let's forget about employing these high profile, high spending managers for England and get someone from the lower leagues (not AS, obv) who has proven that he can transform a losing side by motivating the players and getting the best out of them and not by relying on bringing people in.

 

[brooks]

Carragher was poo, King was injured and as for Upson now do you see my point?:sad:

Of course I see your point but my point is that Ferdinand would have made little difference even though he's better than the players you mention who are as good as my collie.

 

[bees66]

the players you mention who are as good as my collie.

rofllol

 

[Simon T]

Let's consider now what the Bees were like under Terry Butcher. A sorry shower of crap heading towards the Conference, basically.

Now TB resigns and Andy Scott is the manager. The very next week, we are winning games and the whole team is transformed. A couple of months later, and we are using the P word. But my point is this: they are the same players.

It's easy for these managers like Capello or Ferguson to get results if they have millions of pounds available to bring the best players in - but what if they have to make the best of what they have? That's what it means to be a manager in the lower leagues, and it's also what it means if you are a national manager. There is more in common between managing Brentford and England than there is between managing Chelsea and England, if you ask me.

Let's forget about employing these high profile, high spending managers for England and get someone from the lower leagues (not AS, obv) who has proven that he can transform a losing side by motivating the players and getting the best out of them and not by relying on bringing people in.

Rather than go for a lower league manager, why not go for Hodgson who did a good job for Switzerland. It would also **** up Foolham which is an added bonus.

I'm not sure changing the manager for a "hungry" one is the right answer, maybe it's time to say if you are playing in the Premier league earning silly amounts of money then you aren't playing for England.

I'd rather have less talented but hungry players that were proud to play for England in the squad than what we have now.

 

[RT]

Hodgson is a great call, got experience at both levels

 

[bees66]

Hodgson is a great call, got experience at both levels

on his way to Liverpool, it's got to be redknobb

 

[Paul USA]

Can not wait to see Adrian Durham responds to this major disgrace. He has been p*ssi*g me off for three weeks about how good England are and slagging off anyone who calls in with a different opinion.

We have some good (not great) players but we have a poor team.

Heskey for Defoe - Inspirational ! well worth the millions Capello gets paid.

 

[coconino]

Rather than go for a lower league manager, why not go for Hodgson who did a good job for Switzerland. It would also **** up Foolham which is an added bonus.

I'm not sure changing the manager for a "hungry" one is the right answer, maybe it's time to say if you are playing in the Premier league earning silly amounts of money then you aren't playing for England.

I'd rather have less talented but hungry players that were proud to play for England in the squad than what we have now.

 

[Stanley]

Truth?

I think a decent Championship side of English players would have done a better job today.

 

[Idaho Bee]

I must not believe the pre World Cup Hype
I must not believe the pre World Cup Hype
I must not believe the pre World Cup Hype
I must not believe the pre World Cup Hype
I must not believe the pre World Cup Hype
I must not believe the pre World Cup Hype
I must not believe the pre World Cup Hype
I must not believe the pre World Cup Hype
I must not believe the pre World Cup Hype
I must not believe the pre World Cup Hype

Repeat 500 times.

 

[Edmundo]

The truth is that English football is not run in the interests of producing supremely talented English footballers. Blame the imbeciles at the FA and the tossers in charge of the big clubs who run rings around any attempts to put a different perspective on things. The media are complicit in it all, as the journos love the reflected glamour. I put these stats on another thread, but they are just as important here.

Number of coaches holding Uefa's top qualifications:

Germany 34,970
Italy 29,420
Spain 23,995
France 17,588
England 2,769

Read it and weep. Until the development of young players and of coaches is taken away from the Premiership clubs and entrusted to people who care about the future of the game in England, nothing will change. We don't have enough good players coming through and we simply won't until our priorities change.

 

[mhead bee]

The Premier League PR machine has convinced the majority of people in the country and around the world that it is the best league in the world.

To be fair English clubs have totally dominated the later stages of the Champions league for the last 7-8 years. Until this year Italy have been very poor in that competition but that did not stop a very average Italian team winning the world cup. I think we had a right to claim to be the best league in the world.

To me a World Class player is a player that could be put in a team , not squad, from around the world.
Based on that , name any England players whose form over the last 2 years would have got in that World Team - remember you must think of players from around the world, not just Europe .

Rooney on this seasons form probably would have, but on the world cup form none of them.

Add the Germany team that demolished , and ask how many of their players play in the Premier League?
And if the very best players don't play in the Premiership, how much easier is it for our players to shine?

Far too simplistic for me. The German forwards have scored 7 goals between them this season. Would any german players get in a world 11?, would any greek players get in a world 11 and they won the euro's a few years ago?

Our problems run much deeper than this, it is about creating a team that plays to the best of its ability in the system best suited to the that ability.

We can bang on about world class players ect but be honest, ignore the dopey press and tell me where you honestly thought we would finish in the WC? I thought we were a quarter final team, 99% of everybody I know thought we were quarter final team and maybe semis with a bit of luck and 3 lions spirt.

The truth is we have been a shambolic mess and played well below the abilities of the players we have. To be considered favourites was just silly, but we should have expected the quarters to be an achievable target. We are always around the top 8 in the fifa rankings and that is about where we should finish in competitions.

A very wise coach i know said that English players will not become as technically good as other nations until the Academy systems are taken away from the clubs, because the clubs have their own agenda to produce fast powerful players for our leagues and do not encourage individual skill.
And then when kids get to 15 they are rejected when the foreign scouts send the new batch in.

Totally agree, but what we should be talking about at this stage is how we get past the quarter final stage not why we have put in 4 performances of such ineptitude we are questioning the desire of people like wayne rooney.

I blame the manager for a lot of our dismal failure in the WC for many reasons, I am sure it will all come out one day but our performance was on par with france who are a broken team in a broken system but at least they realise it.

We have the same problems now we had 20 years ago and we will probably be talking about it again in 20 years time.

 

[LboroBee]

arrogance - at each club the English players swagger round like they own the place cos they are 1 of the few natives, or have been at the club since they were 10, etc. Or because they're English they're instantly more expensive for some reason.

Put a squad of these together and I'm surprised their heads were able to fit on the plane let alone get through the door.

They listened to Capello in qualifiers, when they only saw him once a month and he was being a hard-a$$, but in a tournament setting the players conceitedness has made Capello ineffective, sadly, as he's great.

 

[Paul O'Brien]

I agree with just about all of the above comments.

In my view, only one - possibly two - players would make it into a World 22: Ashley Cole - like him or loathe him, he's a cut above just above any other left back you can name. The other one (and laugh if you wnt to) is David James. He seems to exude confidence - although not as much as some of the top English goalies in the past.

The Premiership is a very strong one, but so many of the top players are foreign, which gives fewer people to choose from. In addition, an average player can be made to look good by the outstanding players around hiem.

Thirdly, the English players, partly for perhaps financial reasons - seemed to think they could just turn up and they'd win.

Fourthly, tactics: I'm not talking about 4-4-2 or 4-3-1-2 here since I'm not a qualified coach, but something more basic. Although there have been some excellent ball-players on show, the majority of the teams seem to do 1 of 2 things. Those with ball control pass, move and pass ad infinitum - Spain and Portugal, plus Mexico and Chile, are good examples. Those with less control press and press again until the ball falls their way (I first noticed this (was it in 2002?) when teams like Turkey, South Korea, Japan and Greece punched way above their weight in the WC and the EC. England did neither.

 

[westwing]

Too many foreign players in England playing in the Premiersh!t.
If you take these away, there are very few left who would be considered
good enough to play for the country. Our kids have been pushed to one side
in favour of big spending on foreign imports. The end result always being that
England will never be good enough.

How many foreigners played in Division 1 in 1966 ?

And the people at the top seem to think that bringing in a foreign manager and paying him loads of money will solve the problem

Steve Coppell is the man

 

[Newbury Bee 09]

Too many foreign players in England playing in the Premiersh!t.
If you take these away, there are very few left who would be considered
good enough to play for the country. Our kids have been pushed to one side
in favour of big spending on foreign imports. The end result always being that
England will never be good enough.

How many foreigners played in Division 1 in 1966 ?

And the people at the top seem to think that bringing in a foreign manager and paying him loads of money will solve the problem

Steve Coppell is the man

Steve Coppell

 

[NorthamptonBee]

Someone rung in a radio show and suggested Paul Jewell.
I took time to consider this and came up with the conclusion that the chap was either Scottish or a stupid ****.

 

[Mr Tree]

lots of good points made here. think Lboro Bee's point is particularly underrated (i.e. i haven't seen it talked about much yet). but can you imagine a group of 20 multi-millionaires being forced to hang out for 3 weeks together. their topic of conversation probably revolved around who has the biggest tv, who's shagged the most groupies, etc, and they all ended up resenting each other. you don't see any genuine camaraderie in the England team - it's all fake.

re: Steve Coppell. i'd love it. but we'd play effective but unstylish football (it's Coppell's trademark - i wouldn't say long-ball exactly, but it's not far off). plus he can't handle the high-level pressure.

 

[Westlad]

Let's consider now what the Bees were like under Terry Butcher. A sorry shower of crap heading towards the Conference, basically.

Now TB resigns and Andy Scott is the manager. The very next week, we are winning games and the whole team is transformed. A couple of months later, and we are using the P word. But my point is this: they are the same players.

It's easy for these managers like Capello or Ferguson to get results if they have millions of pounds available to bring the best players in - but what if they have to make the best of what they have? That's what it means to be a manager in the lower leagues, and it's also what it means if you are a national manager. There is more in common between managing Brentford and England than there is between managing Chelsea and England, if you ask me.

Let's forget about employing these high profile, high spending managers for England and get someone from the lower leagues (not AS, obv) who has proven that he can transform a losing side by motivating the players and getting the best out of them and not by relying on bringing people in.

I think you make a good point about the same players. You can question the attitude of the players and their ability to come in and play as a team with players they are not used to playing with (i.e. international football), but Gerrard virtually won Liverpool the Champions League on his own and got them to another final. Terry and Lampard have been the backbone of a Chelsea side that have got to 4 semi finals and only lost on penalties in Moscow (was that the year Lampard scored in almost every champions league game?) and it's fair to say Man Utd would have gone alot further this year if Rooney hadn't been injured.

Surely then it's not unreasonable/over-hype to say we should be comfortably topping the group, beating Ghana, then beating Uruguay, then were in the semi finals and we are in the mix. The fact is the manager wasn't getting the best out of his players.

 

[Keighley Bee]

......has made Capello ineffective, sadly, as he's great.

Are we talking about the same Mr Capello who went into the tournament not knowing who his number one keeper was, brought the donkey Carragher (I know he wasn't a donkey a few seasons ago) out of retirement rather than have a look at Dawson who had had a great season, took injured players having said he wouldn't, took out of form players having said he wouldn't, ignored the possibility of Adam Johnson for the left side, took the proven failure SWP instead, never once played Gerrard in his favoured central position, thought Heskey was the man to bring on when we needed goals (having taken off the most likely source of decent crosses in Milner), never tried Joe Cole on the problem left, did not give Crouch a look in despite being a good source of England goals in recent months, thought it would be alright if he made a few extra bob marking players out of ten on some website...............?

Oh, and seems to think England played well.

 

[mhead bee]

Are we talking about the same Mr Capello who went into the tournament not knowing who his number one keeper was, brought the donkey Carragher (I know he wasn't a donkey a few seasons ago) out of retirement rather than have a look at Dawson who had had a great season, took injured players having said he wouldn't, took out of form players having said he wouldn't, ignored the possibility of Adam Johnson for the left side, took the proven failure SWP instead, never once played Gerrard in his favoured central position, thought Heskey was the man to bring on when we needed goals (having taken off the most likely source of decent crosses in Milner), never tried Joe Cole on the problem left, did not give Crouch a look in despite being a good source of England goals in recent months, thought it would be alright if he made a few extra bob marking players out of ten on some website...............?

Oh, and seems to think England played well.

Didnt announce the team until an hour before KO giving no prep time and not allowing people to focus on the game.

ignored englands best goalscorer in the last 10 years Michael Owen, never gave him a chance in early games,

took the armband away from the only person who looks interested because he shagged a single slapper.

Ignored the only formation that works and the only formation the rest of the world play

refused to play our most creative player joe cole from the start

tried to get scholes out of retirement

 

[West Ealing Bee]

Didnt announce the team until an hour before KO giving no prep time and not allowing people to focus on the game.

ignored englands best goalscorer in the last 10 years Michael Owen, never gave him a chance in early games,

took the armband away from the only person who looks interested because he shagged a single slapper.

Ignored the only formation that works and the only formation the rest of the world play

refused to play our most creative player joe cole from the start

tried to get scholes out of retirement

There are some things on this list where Capello would have been damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

If he had kept Terry as captain and we'd failed some would have used it as a stick to beat him with.
If he'd picked Owen he'd have been accused of looking back not forward and as Owen is injured anyway he'd have been abused for trying to rely on someone with injury problems.

Cole didn't exactly show much to prove he was the saviour and Scholes would have been a useful addition IMHO :shrug:

There are some aspects that are clearly wrong, the lack of changing formations, trying alternatives etc but I would still stick with him.

It's easy to forget where we were in November 2007. There were few alternatives. Redknapp hadn't achieved anything except taking Southampton down, Hodgson wasn't even in England IIRC and surely we can't forget how bad England were under McLaren. We turned a 2-5 aggregate against Croatia into a 9-2 with basically the same players on both teams.

We failed in the World Cup but Capello seems to me like a man who learns from his mistakes and given the country's financial commitment to him I think we should give him that chance.

 

[Les Beeavinu]

Cole didn't exactly show much to prove he was the saviour and Scholes would have been a useful addition IMHO :shrug:

I'm intrigued by the Paul Scholes question. Capello was very intransigent about 4-4-2 - I can't see when he would have played.

 

[West Ealing Bee]

I'm intrigued by the Paul Scholes question. Capello was very intransigent about 4-4-2 - I can't see when he would have played.

He might not have played, but he'd have pushed Lampard and Barry harder for their places than Carrick.

I suspect he'd have started with Lampard in CM against USA if he had gone, with Barry injured, as he generally plays deeper now for Man Utd.

 

[maddogging]

I still can't get over SWP making the squad, and Adam Johnson not.....it will take me a while to get over that one !

 

[nick logan]

He might not have played, but he'd have pushed Lampard and Barry harder for their places than Carrick.

I suspect he'd have started with Lampard in CM against USA if he had gone, with Barry injured, as he generally plays deeper now for Man Utd.

What a difference having Scholes could have made. oh well if my Aunty had b***ocks etc etc

 

[Simon T]

The truth is that English football is not run in the interests of producing supremely talented English footballers. Blame the imbeciles at the FA and the tossers in charge of the big clubs who run rings around any attempts to put a different perspective on things. The media are complicit in it all, as the journos love the reflected glamour. I put these stats on another thread, but they are just as important here.

Number of coaches holding Uefa's top qualifications:

Germany 34,970
Italy 29,420
Spain 23,995
France 17,588
England 2,769

Read it and weep. Until the development of young players and of coaches is taken away from the Premiership clubs and entrusted to people who care about the future of the game in England, nothing will change. We don't have enough good players coming through and we simply won't until our priorities change.

I think we might have a winner when it comes to why English players look out of their depth against better teams

 

[maddogging]

What a difference having Scholes could have made. oh well if my Aunty had b***ocks etc etc

I don't know, the speed and effiency with which the Germans moved the ball yesterday would have left Scholes trailing in their wake. Scholes still looks good as he is surrounded by far better players in the United team and most teams sit off them at Old Trundle allowing him to ping it around the place like a training game.

 

[Infatuated Bees Alter Ego]

The truth is that English football is not run in the interests of producing supremely talented English footballers. Blame the imbeciles at the FA and the tossers in charge of the big clubs who run rings around any attempts to put a different perspective on things. The media are complicit in it all, as the journos love the reflected glamour. I put these stats on another thread, but they are just as important here.

Number of coaches holding Uefa's top qualifications:

Germany 34,970
Italy 29,420
Spain 23,995
France 17,588
England 2,769

Read it and weep. Until the development of young players and of coaches is taken away from the Premiership clubs and entrusted to people who care about the future of the game in England, nothing will change. We don't have enough good players coming through and we simply won't until our priorities change.

Good post

 

[eghambee]

The truth is that English football is not run in the interests of producing supremely talented English footballers. Blame the imbeciles at the FA and the tossers in charge of the big clubs who run rings around any attempts to put a different perspective on things. The media are complicit in it all, as the journos love the reflected glamour. I put these stats on another thread, but they are just as important here.

Number of coaches holding Uefa's top qualifications:

Germany 34,970
Italy 29,420
Spain 23,995
France 17,588
England 2,769

Read it and weep. Until the development of young players and of coaches is taken away from the Premiership clubs and entrusted to people who care about the future of the game in England, nothing will change. We don't have enough good players coming through and we simply won't until our priorities change.

Following on from this, it was mentioned to me today that actually people in Britain actually don't want good sportsmen.
His rationale was that the vast majority of people involved in sports of any kind are volunteers.
In his particular sport not only would he have to take a week off work with one of his students to take them to represent their country, but he would have to pay the cost of the trip for him and the athlete.

Not only that but on a recent meeting at Sport England there was a course you could pay for yourself on 'how to get more volunteers'.

Where does all the money go in this multi million business? To the players and the agents.

 

[loyalbee]

we play on full size pitches from childhood, if that doesn't encourage long ball football i dont know what does. The only way we will win anything is if we use the money the sport in this county generates to develop its grass routes.

 

[JBN]

Have to agree with your assessment. If you look at the last 10-15 years most of the best players in the world end up playing for Real Madrid or Barcelona. It's hard to think of an English player that either team would want.

Most of our players get built up by the media, so they can be knocked down and believe that that they are better than they realy are.

Our media is constantly saying saying that the Premiershite is the best league in the world, but look at the top four, they are always looking to buy foreign players, Arsenal being the national leader in importing players from abroad.

If English players are so fantastically brilliant, why aren't the top European sides throwing money at them:-
a) They are not good enough/over rated
b) They are more commited to photoshoots for Hello/OK Magazine
c) They have ego/attitude problems
d) They are over paid and always want more
e) All of the above

 

[mhead bee]

There are some things on this list where Capello would have been damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

If he had kept Terry as captain and we'd failed some would have used it as a stick to beat him with..

But we did fail, and horribly but the only person who looked like he wanted a fight was terry.

If he'd picked Owen he'd have been accused of looking back not forward and as Owen is injured anyway he'd have been abused for trying to rely on someone with injury problems...

I was referring to when Owen was fit and scoring for man unt, he did not even get a sniff of the england squad when other players like scholes are being phoned up. I know Owen was ultimately injured but the albania and usa games are just where he used to pop up.

Cole didn't exactly show much to prove he was the saviour and Scholes would have been a useful addition IMHO :shrug:...

As per my post, he refused to start cole and when he did bring him on he really was up against it and stuck in no mans land. I hope you are joking about scholes right? When he reitred about 4 years ago he was well past his best for england, giving the ball away and idly jogging back.

.

Capello seems to me like a man who learns from his mistakes .

I have to disagree with that, he looks to me to be man who is as stubborn as a mule and refuses to learn. If he did he may have changed the formation to one where we were not played off the pitch by third rate countries. If he learned from his mistakes he would never have brought heskey on versus germany, would have gone one up top to give the midfield a chance and left SWR on the bench after the firs game.

I hope you are right but my fear is we will go into the next qualification with 442 and heskey up front.

 

[West Ealing Bee]

But we did fail, and horribly but the only person who looked like he wanted a fight was terry.

As I said, damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

Terry may have looked like he wanted to a fight, he also looked like a park player yesterday.

I was referring to when Owen was fit and scoring for man unt, he did not even get a sniff of the england squad when other players like scholes are being phoned up. I know Owen was ultimately injured but the albania and usa games are just where he used to pop up.

I would have taken Owen if fit but given Owen scored nine goals last season and only scored in consecutive games just before he tore his hamstring, I don't think you can say he was ever "fit and scoring" :shrug:

As per my post, he refused to start cole and when he did bring him on he really was up against it and stuck in no mans land. I hope you are joking about scholes right? When he reitred about 4 years ago he was well past his best for england, giving the ball away and idly jogging back.

Scholes is leaps ahead of Carrick, he would have added something to the squad. His game has changed since he retired six years ago and would have given us an option as a player who keeps the ball better than almost anyone in the country.
Perhaps Capello should have started Cole, all I know is that he showed nothing in two sub appearances against tiring defences to suggest he would have been our saviour.

I have to disagree with that, he looks to me to be man who is as stubborn as a mule and refuses to learn. If he did he may have changed the formation to one where we were not played off the pitch by third rate countries. If he learned from his mistakes he would never have brought heskey on versus germany, would have gone one up top to give the midfield a chance and left SWR on the bench after the firs game.

I hope you are right but my fear is we will go into the next qualification with 442 and heskey up front.

Fair enough, perhaps I'm going a little on hope here - if we do start 4-4-2 then he deserves all the stick he gets.
I would also say, that if he switches it around we all have to be prepared to give it a chance to work.

 

[hanworthbee]

what happens in Brazil and Argentina? they are consistently better than us yet all their players play abroad and in their domestics leagues they go through more managers than ive had hot dinners I dont imagine they have terrific set ups for kids all round the country.Could it be that the kids are out there on the street corners and in the parks playing proper football rather than playing it on a playstation?

 

[RoyBee]

Paul Scholes - for goodness sake, are people serious?

A red card waiting to happen. Cuckooo

 

[Keighley Bee]

Paul Scholes - for goodness sake, are people serious?

A red card waiting to happen. Cuckooo

Spot on. The suggestion to take Scholes beggars belief. One midfielder I would have liked to see get a chance was Scott Parker, though he has been his own worst enemy, took the money and went to Chelsea, and sat on the bench for 2 years while his career went steadily backwards. He does seem to have some fire in his belly though.

 

[WarrenBee]

They're tired, bless em.

 

[RitchBee]

They're tired, bless em.

Seeing Cole and King laughing their socks off after getting off the plane says it all really doesn't it.

Great front page headline in the Sun newspaper tomorrow..........