What's The Problem?

[Edmundo]

gillingham have bigger depts than us

Do they? What are Gillingham's debts, then?

 

[upnorthbee]

I was at the game today, such a shame we lost because in the first half we looked like a football team. In the second half though we didn't create a single chance. Nelson is partly to blame for the free kick going in because he decided not to arrange his wall, and the penalty was enevitable seen as there were legs flying in from all sorts of brentford players in the box, at the time. CW today was no good and again sadly Tillen looked poor, in the second half we played like we did all throughout the Chesterfield game, even though we had players back. I think Heywood is to unreliable of what i have seen of him and upfront we are to lightweight.

 

[hubble]

9.5 m at the start of the season

 

[cambsbee0304]

Not sure how anyone can blame Nelson for not having anyone on the post. On the other hand maybe if he set his wall up properly then he might have done better. But if O'Connor had scored that free kick we would have been calling it "unstoppbale"!! And has anyone thought to ask why our right midfielder was the one who had to make the challenge that gave away the penalty, especially as we had two left backs on the field at the time.

I for one am not a huge Leroy fan and I understand that due to the financial constraints we are not really able to sack the guy but I am getting realy peed off that he cant be bothered to clap the fans. And some of his substitions . . .

 

[WisBee]

9.5 m at the start of the season

................................pardon my ignorance, but does the above post actually mean anything to anyone........?

 

[tobyw]

................................pardon my ignorance, but does the above post actually mean anything to anyone........?

What are Gillingham's debts, then?

9.5 m at the start of the season

I think...

 

[londondude]

The problem is the players we have.

Nelson- 2 years of mucking up time for him to be dropped

OConnor- Coming back from injury probs not matchfit yet.

Frampton-Coming back from injury not fit yet.

Heywood- Too slow

Griffiths- Broken nose give him some respect

Brooker- Never looks like scoring

Skulason- 12 month out injured give him a chance

Pinault- Looks more like a non league player.

Tillien- Needs some matchtime

Wjinhard- NO pre season needs lots of work only short term measure until owusu is back. Sooner the better.

Kuffour- Seemed to have been playing injured recently.

 

[WisBee]

I think...

.................oh, right....thanks..............silly me for not seeing the connection

 

[tommo]

For a club with no money I don't think we have a bad team, OK its not a league winning team but it should be capable of finishing a respectable mid table position.

Ok the injuries haven't helped but these players have come back, and just didn't look interested, theres no passion to play football nevermind winning.

Today there was no urgency that we need to get forward and get goals, no one was closing down Rotherham, no one was getting stuck in, Kev made one decent challenge. Theres a lack of confidence within the team, is there where Leroy is struggling? Team motivation?

 

[brooks]

9.5 m at the start of the season

http://www.footballeconomy.com/rep_jul_12.htm

 

[Brentford St George]

I normally agree with most of what North London Bee says, but I think his blanket assessment of the ins and outs was from the heart rather than the head.
We need a b****** in the middle of midfield and another up front to take the weight off Kuffour - for starters.
That's the cue for MarkBFC to step in and remind everyone in his usual patronising tone that we haven't got any money.
So the solution is....going to be hard to find.

What is wrong with Mark being a realist Jim perhaps as a local journalist you may be happy to paint a rosy picture.Sorry,but it does not work like that and because your view towards Mark is tainted to say the least you should way up the true facts We are doomed financially -end of

 

[abee]

I normally agree with most of what North London Bee says, but I think his blanket assessment of the ins and outs was from the heart rather than the head.
We need a b****** in the middle of midfield and another up front to take the weight off Kuffour - for starters.
That's the cue for MarkBFC to step in and remind everyone in his usual patronising tone that we haven't got any money.
So the solution is....going to be hard to find.

I cannot speak regarding the performances because I don't go anymore: I washed my hands of it after listening to Burgess tell us that "Ron has come up trumps". Last January having just effectively transferred £250k of my monies to the Altonwood bank account I was old enough and ugly enough to understand that BU was never gonna deal with Noades other than to roll over and have its tummy tickled but I didn't expect him to be hosed down with treacle. That was one set of weasel words too far for me and it is all rather working out as I expected after having listened to Burgess in disbelief. However there is a ton of dosh to be shaken out if only someone would get to grips with the situation at Griffin Park. The Princess Royal is losing £75k per year....(cheers McGlashan, Callen and Rogers)....that after a considerable capital improvements overrun because nobody had heard of purchase orders and they were happy for King to be "down the pub" (Jesus if I ever run across Finch I'll probably pump two bullets in him), the Superstore is below budget and the playing budget plus injury "contingencies" has all been spent before the middle of September. The "easily achieved" sponsorships have not been evident, Qatar Airways seems to have dropped off the radar, the Refreshing Solutions deal does not yet appear to have been consummated (and there's another story). We may not have any monies (if that's not too patronising for you) but I know where there is plenty to be found..........

 

[larrysigny]

in him)We may not have any monies (if that's not too patronising for you) but I know where there is plenty to be found..........

I don't expect you to enlighten us here on the Grapevine - bit I presume you have given the full details to BFC/BU.

 

[scotty]

I assume we're talking about a free kick here?

Extremely rare you have a man on the post because you'll end up with 3 of the opposing team standing immediately in front of the keeper.

Finally someone talks some sense, I personally thought players were hesitant to be in the wall. And to be fair to Nelson it was a class free kick of which he got a hand on it, and from it when flying into the post and got hurt.

 

[SmiffyBee]

I don't expect you to enlighten us here on the Grapevine - bit I presume you have given the full details to BFC/BU.

re-read the last 3 sentences and ponder and bit longer

the answer is there !

 

[scotty]

Nelson is partly to blame for the free kick going in because he decided not to arrange his wall,

Really I thought he had it in the right place and then the wall decided to move?! Are we fogetting the good saves he made in the first half? But I guess its easier to blame him than the rubbish that was playing in front of him.

 

[SQUELCH]

Finally someone talks some sense, I personally thought players were hesitant to be in the wall. And to be fair to Nelson it was a class free kick of which he got a hand on it, and from it when flying into the post and got hurt.

A class free kick? He got it over the wall and in the goal, it wasn't even in the corner. As for him being hurt, he seemed to recover fairly quickly and it didn't affect his kicking.

 

[abee]

I don't expect you to enlighten us here on the Grapevine - bit I presume you have given the full details to BFC/BU.

No Einstein......I don't know exactly whom I'm supposed to have "bit" but if you have the time to continually write your crap perhaps you could devote some of it to answering the backlog of questions directed at you on the GPG.

The monies that are available are those that can be saved by running the club properly.......now please do everyone a favour and **** off.

 

[abee]

re-read the last 3 sentences and ponder and bit longer

the answer is there !

Thank you.

Brentford's Dimmest Supporter (BDS) is absolutely incapable of reading a post and coming to any sensible conclusion.........he has to toss in his twopennorth however ridiculous. He loves asking questions and demanding answers except when questions are asked of him when he scuttles off down his "drains" and mopes about on the other unofficial websites until he feels that the coast is clear.

God, I simply loathe this man and everything that he stands for.

 

[Claire]

we do, like people have said previously just need to get that win, and it will boost everyones confidence. we do have the players with talent there...

 

[Streetboy]

The problem yesterday was not lack of money, but lack of spirit and commitment...and that don't cost a penny!

 

[Brickie Chap]

It's all very well blaming Leroy, but would a different manager have assembled a significantly stronger squad, given the constraints? I'm not convinced. Would a different manager have got a similar strength squad to perform any better? Again, I'm not convinced.

BUT Leroy and his bestest mate Griffin were promising that their football contacts would get us access to decent enough players. All we've had is the dodgy transfer of a family friend from Bristol City. According to legend, Fulham and West Ham love him and yet they dont have a single player to send out on loan to us.

Agent Leory will take us down. This is his team, no excuses allowed. If he cant get us two victories this week, he should walk.

 

[Brickie Chap]

The "easily achieved" sponsorships have not been evident, Qatar Airways seems to have dropped off the radar, the Refreshing Solutions deal does not yet appear to have been consummated (and there's another story). We may not have any monies (if that's not too patronising for you) but I know where there is plenty to be found..........

I thought this was done and dusted They have their name all over the tickets blah blah blah

 

[hubble]

people keep saying if we go into administration we will lose the ground the way things are going we are going to lose it anyway we have no future if we do end up getting the a new ground what level football will we be at it might be to late

 

[Youngbee2]

That C*nt Noades :mad1:

 

[Downbeat Bee]

In a nutshell the problem:

We are 9m in debt

Our squad is not good enough

It is very hard to get players to come to Brentford because 1) The wages aren't high enough 2) It's London (so costs a fortune)



At present I reckon it's 50:50 whether we stay up.

Willock and Fitzgerald out would help a lot

 

[-superbees2k3-]

I'm confident we will be ok once Lloydy returns, however i think the main problem lies in our midfield. I haven't seen us play every game this year in fact i've only managed one away trip but from what i've seen so far our midfield are too keen to try and play the ball over the top.This is all well and good with Kuffour's pace, but i think that the midfield should be bursting into the area more and testing the keeper with long range shots.

 

[Brickie Chap]

What gives you confidence that Lloyd's return, if in fact he is match fit before the end of Jan, lets say, will save us? His recent goal scoring record is average at best. Last season was more a tale of chances missed rather than taken. He is now another year older and coming back from a long term injury.

 

[Downbeat Bee]

What gives you confidence that Lloyd's return, if in fact he is match fit before the end of Jan, lets say, will save us? His recent goal scoring record is average at best. Last season was more a tale of chances missed rather than taken. He is now another year older and coming back from a long term injury.

Unfortunately I have similar concerns

 

[North London Bee]

Owusu played reasonably well last season in terms of elading the line but his finishing was frankly appalling, as I posted many, many times out of frustration as his inadequacies cost us crucila points.

We cannot expect anything from him as he will have been out for over 8-9 months and will need time - time we do not have to regain any semblance of sharpness.

I am sure Leroy was banking on starting the season with a fit Owusu - evidenced by him only bringing in support strikers in Kuffour and Moore.

Owusu's loss is in my opinion the biggest reason why we find oursleves in our current position as I believe that his presence would have allowed JK even more spece in which to create havoc.

 

[-superbees2k3-]

As NLB has said the return of Lloyd will mean a real target man up top, which in turn will mean JK has more room to roam and get onto the end of flick ons. As well as this his hold up play is decent so he can bring the midfield into the game a bit more. Lloyd is a much more potent target man than Willock or Wijnhard imo.

 

[oracle]

I do not normally add to the forum but i feel now is a good time to do so!

For all years i have followed the bee's, we have always blamed no money as a factor to us doing poorly. We are one of many clubs in the football league with no money. Under LR we are playing some of the best spells of football i have seen us play. Confidence is what i feel is our problem. No one has the confidence to shoot. Its not bout ability, How can we score if no one shoots? Against City we saw a few efforts and that builds presure against sides and rasies confidence, as long as misses are not growned at by supporters. I am not suprised we have a team below par if we have a support that gets on their backs. We know we have a young side, who have not got into the grove yet! Where are the fans this year? it has been shocking the atmosphere generated at home. We used to be a intimidating place to come, no wonder players do respond to us at the end of games if we do not offer our vocal support!!!!

 

[Stanley]

Pretty simple - good players win matches and get into the habit of winning.

We no longer have most of our good players and have forgotten what itfeels like to win.

Subtracting

Tabb
Turner
Sodje
DJ
Owusu (pro tem)
Rankin
Pratley

and replacing them with

Griffiths
Heywood
Pinault
Moore
Kuffour
CW
Tomlin
(Pillock)

is a recipe for disaster.

Interesting post but IMHO those two lists are not that far apart in terms of ability and flair. We do not have poor players but a poor team ( at the moment) and we should be doing better. Under Wally we had poor players and a poor team so we had no hope until MA arrived with his great escape.

I can't believe that LR won't pull it around with the squad he has, if he can't then he really has no future as a manager to be honest. Our lack of depth and low salary budget may prevent us from getting promotion but it should not be leading to a relegation. I have seen a few relegation teams at BFC over the years and this squad don't have that feel to them ability wise.

 

[North London Bee]

Interesting post but IMHO those two lists are not that far apart in terms of ability and flair. We do not have poor players but a poor team ( at the moment) and we should be doing better. Under Wally we had poor players and a poor team so we had no hope until MA arrived with his great escape.

I can't believe that LR won't pull it around with the squad he has, if he can't then he really has no future as a manager to be honest. Our lack of depth and low salary budget may prevent us from getting promotion but it should not be leading to a relegation. I have seen a few relegation teams at BFC over the years and this squad don't have that feel to them ability wise.

I agree that it is not just all about ability - it is the blend that is also crucial to a team's success however I cannot agree that Leroy's signings possess anywhere near the ability or potential of the 7 players I listed from last season (Rankin excepted)!

 

[tommo]

Well on the brightside it is a very close league so when things turn around and got a string of results going then we will be heading up the table at quite a rate.

I hope.

 

[abee]

I agree that it is not just all about ability - it is the blend that is also crucial to a team's success however I cannot agree that Leroy's signings possess anywhere near the ability or potential of the 7 players I listed from last season (Rankin excepted)!

Hmmm.

Effectively the squad had over £700k of transfer fee talent stripped out of it with the sales of Tabb, Turner and Sodje. £400k of these monies were budgeted for and the remaining £300k has been substantially held back to cover the Princess Royal losses, the Superstore below budget sales, attendances shortfall, the lack of sponsorship coming through and other bits and pieces. The close season was a mess frankly and LR had very little time to put together his squad as it seemed to me that we were late getting into the summer musical chairs.

Now NLB given that Leroy has a budget not unadjacent to that enjoyed at the start of last season by Martin Allen (as confirmed by Greg Dyke) and bearing in mind that Leroy is on a higher basic salary than Martin Allen (take abee's word for that) then do you believe that we will stay up this season. I would hope and expect that this question is being asked of LR at every BFC board meeting and one win in the last twelve league matches and one win in fourteen all matches (if you count Swindon as a draw) and with fourteen goals in fourteen league matches is not exactly the recipe for bringing the neutral punters flocking back nor previously uncommitted potential sponsors to be hammering at the GP gates.

The fun will come during the January transfer window of course.

 

[WisBee]

Hmmm.

Effectively the squad had over £700k of transfer fee talent stripped out of it with the sales of Tabb, Turner and Sodje. £400k of these monies were budgeted for and the remaining £300k has been substantially held back to cover the Princess Royal losses, the Superstore below budget sales, attendances shortfall, the lack of sponsorship coming through and other bits and pieces. The close season was a mess frankly and LR had very little time to put together his squad as it seemed to me that we were late getting into the summer musical chairs.

Now NLB given that Leroy has a budget not unadjacent to that enjoyed at the start of last season by Martin Allen (as confirmed by Greg Dyke) and bearing in mind that Leroy is on a higher basic salary than Martin Allen (take abee's word for that) then do you believe that we will stay up this season. I would hope and expect that this question is being asked of LR at every BFC board meeting and one win in the last twelve league matches and one win in fourteen all matches (if you count Swindon as a draw) and with fourteen goals in fourteen league matches is not exactly the recipe for bringing the neutral punters flocking back nor previously uncommitted potential sponsors to be hammering at the GP gates.

The fun will come during the January transfer window of course.

..........sorry abee, I think you've lost me on that last sentence......is it that you think we'll be spending further money (that we don't have) in trying to staunch the downward spiral, or is it that you think that we have players - of value enough - for other clubs to steal them from us.......(and if so, who....?)


.................oh yes, and the other thing is the question of the respective salaries of our present and most-recent past managers.....is it really the case that LR is on more basic than MA would have been this season had he remained with us......I find that to be an incredulous situation, if true (and I'm not doubting you)..... whatever was the case put forward to justify it..............?

 

[abee]

..........sorry abee, I think you've lost me on that last sentence......is it that you think we'll be spending further money (that we don't have) in trying to staunch the downward spiral, or is it that you think that we have players - of value enough - for other clubs to steal them from us.......(and if so, who....?)


.................oh yes, and the other thing is the question of the respective salaries of our present and most-recent past managers.....is it really the case that LR is on more basic than MA would have been this season had he remained with us......I find that to be an incredulous situation, if true (and I'm not doubting you)..... whatever was the case put forward to justify it..............?

My guess is that if the drift continues then the board will be put in the position in January of deciding whether or not to chuck more monies at the squad in an effort to avoid relegation. I haven't see us play since last February (I think it was) but from what I read and hear no one player seems to be tearing up trees or is consistent enough to be likely to attract a decent transfer fee in January. I doubt we can depend upon that.

Martin Allen was contracted to BFC through June 2007 at a basic salary less than that presently paid to LR. It is true that in the summer MA was offered a new extended contract with a substantial increase in his basic wage but with a sharp cut in his incentive and bonus payments. MK Dons paid compensation to BFC of one years basic salary and this was split over (if I recall correctly) either two or three instalments.

 

[PJ]

I can't believe that LR won't pull it around with the squad he has,

Why do you believe that he can pull it around with the squad he has? We are pants, we have far too many passengers for a small squad. We lack quality {and bottle} throughout the squad.
Yesterday we paraded our best X1 (ok Owusu for Wijnhard apart) and they disgraced the name of BFC..........pathetic, gutless etc etc

I dont personally rate LR (and was against his appointment purely on the lack of any credibility on his CV) - nice bloke and all that but he`s a coach, not a manager IMHO.
When we got £50k odd from Franchise i said it should be ring-fenced for when we need to say ta ra to LR, it was tongue-in-cheek hoping i`d be wrong at the time but i bet it does come home to roost and i also bet BFC aint ringfenced it either (Hope i`m wrong btw but it aint looking good is it)

 

[WisBee]

My guess is that if the drift continues then the board will be put in the position in January of deciding whether or not to chuck more monies at the squad in an effort to avoid relegation. I haven't see us play since last February (I think it was) but from what I read and hear no one player seems to be tearing up trees or is consistent enough to be likely to attract a decent transfer fee in January. I doubt we can depend upon that.

Martin Allen was contracted to BFC through June 2007 at a basic salary less than that presently paid to LR. It is true that in the summer MA was offered a new extended contract with a substantial increase in his basic wage but with a sharp cut in his incentive and bonus payments. MK Dons paid compensation to BFC of one years basic salary and this was split over (if I recall correctly) either two or three instalments.

..................is LR still serving his probationary period...................?

 

[abee]

Why do you believe that he can pull it around with the squad he has? We are pants, we have far too many passengers for a small squad. We lack quality {and bottle} throughout the squad.
Yesterday we paraded our best X1 (ok Owusu for Wijnhard apart) and they disgraced the name of BFC..........pathetic, gutless etc etc

I dont personally rate LR (and was against his appointment purely on the lack of any credibility on his CV) - nice bloke and all that but he`s a coach, not a manager IMHO.
When we got £50k odd from Franchise i said it should be ring-fenced for when we need to say ta ra to LR, it was tongue-in-cheek hoping i`d be wrong at the time but i bet it does come home to roost and i also bet BFC aint ringfenced it either (Hope i`m wrong btw but it aint looking good is it)

LR has a two year contract through June 2008.

The MA compensation monies were tossed into the playing budget as a contingency and have now been spent along of course with the Coca Cola monies. So effectively some £105k was "windfall" (MA and Coca Cola) and it's gone.

You win your bet........

I assume that the Ide, Rhodes, Charles loans together with the cancellation of England's contract is an attempt to get the budget back on track and/or pave the way for another loan signing.

 

[abee]

..................is LR still serving his probationary period...................?

What probationary period.........rofl rofl rofl

Probationary periods are only for Managing Directors and CEO's.

 

[North London Bee]

abee to answer your specific question and add a few pennorth more

1. No I do not expect us to stay up this season

2. Given the size of the budget that you confirm LR was given then I feel he has made a pigs ear of spending it

3. I was not present at the managerial appointment interviews however I strongly believe that LR was appointed (not because he was the cheapest option - as you confirm given his basic salary) but because he was the most diametrically opposite to MA in every aspect of his make up, personality and approach - he is low rather than high maintenance

4. Was he the correct choice - time will tell but even given that I was not present at the interviews, from my conversations with him I felt that Chris Wilder was a very strong candidate in terms of his attitude , approach and personality

5. I am just surprised at the lack of imagination in terms of player acquisitions or the least evidence that LR has been able to either pull a rabbit out of the hat (a la DJ) or capitalise upon his supposed contacts at the top echelons of the game

6. In terms of the transfer window, if the results have not improved I would anticipate a couple of panic moves for experienced journeymen with no resale value whose presence will blow the budget for a further year

7. I would also guess the stringent efforts will be made to sell probably our most sellable asset in Kevin O'Connor.

I know of one first division club that planned to come in for him in January before they heard that he had signed an extended contract with the club

 

[PJ]

The MA compensation monies were tossed into the playing budget as a contingency and have now been spent along of course with the Coca Cola monies. So effectively some £105k was "windfall" (MA and Coca Cola) and it's gone.

You win your bet........

And i was trying to sound upbeat in trying to entice you back to the GP circus abee
If you change your mind let me know, ruby on me

 

[WisBee]

What probationary period.........rofl rofl rofl

Probationary periods are only for Managing Directors and CEO's.

..................didn't think that applied to that chavfinch.................!lol

 

[abee]

abee to answer your specific question and add a few pennorth more

1. No I do not expect us to stay up this season

2. Given the size of the budget that you confirm LR was given then I feel he has made a pigs ear of spending it

3. I was not present at the managerial appointment interviews however I strongly believe that LR was appointed (not because he was the cheapest option - as you confirm given his basic salary) but because he was the most diametrically opposite to MA in every aspect of his make up, personality and approach - he is low rather than high maintenance

4. Was he the correct choice - time will tell but even given that I was not present at the interviews, from my conversations with him I felt that Chris Wilder was a very strong candidate in terms of his attitude , approach and personality

5. I am just surprised at the lack of imagination in terms of player acquisitions or the least evidence that LR has been able to either pull a rabbit out of the hat (a la DJ) or capitalise upon his supposed contacts at the top echelons of the game

6. In terms of the transfer window, if the results have not improved I would anticipate a couple of panic moves for experienced journeymen with no resale value whose presence will blow the budget for a further year

7. I would also guess the stringent efforts will be made to sell probably our most sellable asset in Kevin O'Connor.

I know of one first division club that planned to come in for him in January before they heard that he had signed an extended contract with the club

Well Greville I have great respect for your football knowledge and it's gloomy reading that you don't expect us to stay up.

A couple of points.....I have never said that LR was the "cheapest option"...I have no idea what the other three interviewed were looking for but I assume that the job was advertised with the salary and that the other finalists together with the other applicants who didn't make the cut would all have taken the job at the same rate. I too believed that Chris Wilder was a very strong candidate but the fix was in for LR and the interviews were really just going through the motions.

Re the playing budget it was Greg Dyke who confirmed that it was (more or less) the same as MA's starting budget for last season.

I would expect one of the questions to be asked of any applicant for Team Manager would be "When you ring around the footy circuit who is on your speed dial and takes your phone calls" and like you I anticipated some evidence that we were "connected" either through LR or possibly through Greg Dyke with his "having dinner with David Dein" and "still mates with Fergie" suggestions. However it probably doesn't help too much that LR seemingly set his face against incoming loans which he clearly doesn't like.

 

[abee]

And i was trying to sound upbeat in trying to entice you back to the GP circus abee
If you change your mind let me know, ruby on me

I'm far too well to get involved thank you PJ.

I see my stock is going down.....last month it was an offer of a filet steak......now we're down to a curry........

 

[PJ]

LR pulls everyone back at corners, ala MA. Fact lol

When used to being 1-0 up will be easier to ascertain regular tactics

 

[Brentford_till_die]

No spirit and no desire.

Yesterday and other games we dont seem to communicate and look bothered if we are lossing or if we can win the game but dont.

Where as under MA we looked like a team and a team that played for each other and loved to play.

We also miss a player LIKE Ricky Newman i.e somone just to sit and cover the back four and get stuck in ( a ball winner ) someone with a bit of agression.

Also i think that if we are going to get something out of games we will have to score first. We look low on confidence even wen we kick off so if we go 1 nil down ha ha no chance.

Before yesterday's game i said that i will give LR to the end of November to get a win if not then time for him to go i think.
So we must get a win from these games:
Gillingham (H)
Oldham (A)
Nott Forest (A)
Crewe (H)
Cheltenham (A)

Persoanlly i think games will go like this
Gillingham (H) - Lose/Draw
Oldham (A) - Lose
Nott Forest - (A) - Lose
Crewe (H) - Lose/Draw
Cheltenham (A) - Lose/Draw

Cant see a win anywhere...

Sorrry but seems like League 2 football next year with sh*ty trips to Accrington, Rochdale, Macclesfield, Boston
Average attendance probably - 4000

 

[Mr Cynical]

Where as under MA we looked like a team and a team that played for each other and loved to play.

We also miss a player LIKE Ricky Newman i.e somone just to sit and cover the back four and get stuck in ( a ball winner ) someone with a bit of agression.

Oh, how quickly they forget!!!