Centre Backs??

Best pairing?

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Isleworth_Bee

Isleworth_Bee

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Centre Backs??

What is our best pairing??

Now i cant be bothered to discuss the pairing and past performances on each defenders thread........ Im not sure if there is a place for this? IMO there is some work to be done at the back regardless of pairings as we are conceding quite a few goals (14 in 10 with 1 clean sheet since the Sheff wed clean sheet). Now i know our style opens us up occasionally and the odd goal here and there cant be helped. But against ipswich we were just bullied at the back....... Which is a little worrying and i hope other teams dont figure this out as well.

Im not trying to overreact to yesterday. But our defending was very poor IMO and we were lucky to not be 4-5 down by half time.

What is our best pairing? Im not sure. I think JT has to be given a chance. I think TC was lucky after Bolton and HD has been lucky to keep his place after some basic mistakes.

For me the basic mistake against Ipswich with the header from HD hasnt helped his cause and TC being bullied for large parts hasnt helped him...............
 

Centre Backs??

JT and a new left sided centre back will be our best pairing in time.

Right now it's TC and one other. TC gets my nod based on a left foot and no other captain candidate in the squad (something else which needs addressing).

But whatever 2 from 3 we go with certain games have shown they struggle to cope with top championship forwards. Which is why we need to improve our options in defence.
 

Centre Backs??

Strange how it has only taken one defeat for the talk on here to go from 'we are lucky to have three awesome central defenders, the only problem is which one to leave out' to 'this is a problem area, we need to get someone else in quick'.

I think both Craig and (particularly) Dean have always been prone to errors, the big difference on Friday was that they got ruthlessly punished. One factor was the increased pressure Ipswich applied by not letting us pass around at the back, and playing two proper strikers. I don't think too many teams have played two up front, at GP at least, and we struggled to cope. We also looked shaky when Blackburn went with two strikers by bringing on Rhodes.

I'd hope we can stick with who we've got, as there is at least one higher priority when it comes to strengthening in January. But I would like to see Tarkowski back in the side, as he's the best long term option at this level and beyond.
 

Centre Backs??

...........how far are Calvet and O'Shaunessy from the first team????????............
 

Centre Backs??

We are lucky with have 3 decent CBs, but I would not pick 2 at the start of the season and expect them to play every game. They will have dips in form as Dean did earlier and was dropped but came back stronger, I now believe it is time to rest Craig. Recent performances (Cardiff/Ipswich) he struggled against Jones and Murphy and imo a rest now would be of benefit to him, and more importantly the team. We have a squad of good players that we need to use sometimes, bringing in Tarks for Craig against Wolves would be the right thing to do imo.
 

Centre Backs??

pompeybee said:
Strange how it has only taken one defeat for the talk on here to go from 'we are lucky to have three awesome central defenders, the only problem is which one to leave out' to 'this is a problem area, we need to get someone else in quick'.

I think both Craig and (particularly) Dean have always been prone to errors, the big difference on Friday was that they got ruthlessly punished. One factor was the increased pressure Ipswich applied by not letting us pass around at the back, and playing two proper strikers. I don't think too many teams have played two up front, at GP at least, and we struggled to cope. We also looked shaky when Blackburn went with two strikers by bringing on Rhodes.

I'd hope we can stick with who we've got, as there is at least one higher priority when it comes to strengthening in January. But I would like to see Tarkowski back in the side, as he's the best long term option at this level and beyond.
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You should not confuse yourself between results and performances. If you had watched Craig over the past 2/3 games he has struggled and was exposed by Jones in Cardiff and Murphy 2 days ago. Tough decisions have to be made but I would say Craig's confidence has taken a battering and needs to be rested, after all that is what we have the squad/competition of places for?
 

Centre Backs??

Bridge Bee said:
JT and a new left sided centre back will be our best pairing in time.

Right now it's TC and one other. TC gets my nod based on a left foot and no other captain candidate in the squad (something else which needs addressing).

But whatever 2 from 3 we go with certain games have shown they struggle to cope with top championship forwards. Which is why we need to improve our options in defence.
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Based on your logic of TCs left foot he should never be dropped unless we bring in another CB who is left footed? Totally nonsensical imo.
 

Centre Backs??

Every player can be replaced by a better one, subject to availability and affordability. All the defensive positions included. The only position we have any cover in is the right-sided/right-footed centre back. Craig has been caught out by bigger and quicker forwards but that's not to say Dean or Tarkowski would not have struggled, either. Dean has taken the "keep the ball in play" a bit too far but that's not to say Tarkowski wouldn't have got caught out too far up the pitch. None of them is perfect but this week gives a good opportunity to try a change.
 

Centre Backs??

Kingston Bee said:
Based on your logic of TCs left foot he should never be dropped unless we bring in another CB who is left footed? Totally nonsensical imo.
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John Terry has certainly had a decent career as a left sided CB who is right footed so have many others.
 

Centre Backs??

Kingston Bee said:
You should not confuse yourself between results and performances. If you had watched Craig over the past 2/3 games he has struggled and was exposed by Jones in Cardiff and Murphy 2 days ago. Tough decisions have to be made but I would say Craig's confidence has taken a battering and needs to be rested, after all that is what we have the squad/competition of places for?
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Not sure that we're disagreeing here. I've seen two of the last three games and yes, Craig has struggled against more physical strikers, and against the pressure of he and Dean having two to cope with rather than one. With only one to cope with, it seems that Dean takes on the physical stuff while Craig tends to mop up on the ground. Even on the ground Craig has struggled one on one with quick powerful opponents, giving away the penalty against Donaldson and getting completely mugged by Murphy, apparently unwilling to challenge for fear of another red card.

So I guess I'd agree with you that he needs a rest. The captaincy issue, which others have mentioned, is an irrelevance so far as team selection is concerned.
 

Centre Backs??

We have 2 young CB's in Dean and Tarkowski both of whom are liable to mistakes and rushes of blood. With regards Tarky he is fitting the description of the longer he doesn't play the better he gets!!!

Craig worries me most as whilst his experience is an integral part if the team his performance is begining to belie that experience and can be our weak point

A pairing of Tarky and Dean has not yet proved itself and with 2 hot heads in the centre of defence we are always flirting with danger

Warns will not rush to drop his captain but is as aware as any that it will happen at some point, I would anticipate that he may be rested in the cup rather than against Wolves
 

Centre Backs??

Tarkowski and Dean, how Tarkowski keeps getting left out I will never know.
 

Centre Backs??

I knew Craig would struggle this season, I got slaughtered for saying this a while back. Looks like I'm correct sadly.
 

Centre Backs??

buzzybees said:
I knew Craig would struggle this season, I got slaughtered for saying this a while back. Looks like I'm correct sadly.
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Sorry, I don't agree...he's not playing great at the moment but Craig, Dean and Tarkowski have all made mistakes this season....Daryl Murphy will force errors out of other centre backs this season.

Would be interested to see how far Calvet and O'Shaunessy are away from the first team though. Cup run outs?
 

Centre Backs??

Col T said:
Sorry, I don't agree...he's not playing great at the moment but Craig, Dean and Tarkowski have all made mistakes this season....Daryl Murphy will force errors out of other centre backs this season.

Would be interested to see how far Calvet and O'Shaunessy are away from the first team though. Cup run outs?
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Fair enough mate but I think a lot of people think Craig is marvelous because he's captain, personally I dont think there's any doubt who our two best CB'S are.
 

Centre Backs??

They have all made mistakes this season but of the 3 the one who has made the least is Tarks (also played the less). HD made 2 mistakes on BD and both became goals but we had plenty of opportunity to deal with the mistake and recover but we didn't. TC's mistake for the second was shocking, he should have headed or cleared it but he let it bounce over his head then fell over. The last goal we had 4 players on the spot and no ipswich player within 10 yards and HD headed it straight to their player on the edge of the box, that was not his fault, where was the call/talking just to let him bring it down and play it out.

TC for me has started to make far too many mistakes, he is becoming a mistake a game player and we have got away with it because we outscore the oppo or we recover. It is harsh because he has made some wonderful blocks and tackles as well and we are up the top of the table so it can't be that bad but we will see a change today )due to 2 games in 3 days above all else) and IMO TC is the man that needs to stand aside at the moment and put tarks in with HD.
 

Centre Backs??

buzzybees said:
I knew Craig would struggle this season, I got slaughtered for saying this a while back. Looks like I'm correct sadly.
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Rubbish.

TC has had a number of good games, more than most, probably. The last few, he's struggled at times, especially against good forwards, such as Graham & Murphy. He can handle this division. Dean has struggled and so has Tarkowski. Bidwell has been below par too, especially against Scannell, should he be replaced?

Every player has their ups and downs. TC's been good, he deserves credit for that.
 

Centre Backs??

mhead bee said:
They have all made mistakes this season but of the 3 the one who has made the least is Tarks (also played the less). HD made 2 mistakes on BD and both became goals but we had plenty of opportunity to deal with the mistake and recover but we didn't. TC's mistake for the second was shocking, he should have headed or cleared it but he let it bounce over his head then fell over. The last goal we had 4 players on the spot and no ipswich player within 10 yards and HD headed it straight to their player on the edge of the box, that was not his fault, where was the call/talking just to let him bring it down and play it out.

TC for me has started to make far too many mistakes, he is becoming a mistake a game player and we have got away with it because we outscore the oppo or we recover. It is harsh because he has made some wonderful blocks and tackles as well and we are up the top of the table so it can't be that bad but we will see a change today )due to 2 games in 3 days above all else) and IMO TC is the man that needs to stand aside at the moment and put tarks in with HD.
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Harlee made one error, poor clearance from a header, which led to a goal, not two.
 

Centre Backs??

wanderer paul said:
Rubbish.

TC has had a number of good games, more than most, probably. The last few, he's struggled at times, especially against good forwards, such as Graham & Murphy. He can handle this division. Dean has struggled and so has Tarkowski. Bidwell has been below par too, especially against Scannell, should he be replaced?

Every player has their ups and downs. TC's been good, he deserves credit for that.
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The only point I would disagree with is that Tarks hasn't struggled in my opinion. He committed a howler vs Norwich and picked up a couple of un-necessary bookings that cost him his place. (in my opinion)
I still think he is arguably our best defender and if he continues to develop will play in The Premiership very soon.
 

Centre Backs??

We have kept one clean sheet since the 21st October, I think TC and HD need to thank Andre Gray for their run in the team more than anyone else.

They are both quality centre backs but let's not pretend they are world beaters. I reckon JT and a new CB as a pairing, plus a new striker to give Gray some competition would see us finish top 2.

This team is very good, the best ever (for Brentford) in fact, but the defence is the weakest area at the moment and there is no room for sentiment in football.
 

Centre Backs??

Craig has been a good player for us but he is a weak link when isolated one on one against good, physical pacy strikers. In fairness to him they are always going to be difficult to defend against. But who didn't think the other day when he got outmuscled 'here we go again'.
 

Centre Backs??

Second half of the season and we will face same high pressing tactics from all teams now. Dean looks like a frightened rabbit every time he has to play the ball out from the back. Tarks and TC for me
 

Centre Backs??

Neal said:
Dean looks like a frightened rabbit every time he has to play the ball out from the back.
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Bit harsh, he's improved loads in that area. Agree it doesn't look natural for him though. I respect him for the improvement though.
 

Centre Backs??

Neal said:
Second half of the season and we will face same high pressing tactics from all teams now. Dean looks like a frightened rabbit every time he has to play the ball out from the back. Tarks and TC for me
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Unless of course he goes on one of his driving runs through the opposition ?????

Think your description is very harsh on Harlee, agree he is likely to make mistakes and so is Tarks. Our weakest link at present, in my opinion, is the captain
 

Centre Backs??

The Pipe said:
Unless of course he goes on one of his driving runs through the opposition ?????

Think your description is very harsh on Harlee, agree he is likely to make mistakes and so is Tarks. Our weakest link at present, in my opinion, is the captain
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Have to agree. MW doesn't though. TC seems to be the fixture at the moment, undroppable.
 

Centre Backs??

The Pipe said:
Unless of course he goes on one of his driving runs through the opposition ?????

Think your description is very harsh on Harlee, agree he is likely to make mistakes and so is Tarks. Our weakest link at present, in my opinion, is the captain
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Craig struggles physically with the best and strongest in this division but in terms of his experience and positional play and leadership is streets ahead of his two younger and more talented colleagues and Warbs values that.

Harlee frustrates the hell out of me, wins great headers, goes in for barnstorming tackles-Which usually he times perfectly-Never shirks a physical challenge and seldom loses one......then misplaces simple passes and headers gifting possession to opposition which will more often than not punish you at this level. Also his positional play goes out of the window on occasion as he goes hunting the ball rather than staying with his man or holding the line. Can he eradicate the mistakes which have now cost goals against Fulham, Blackburn and Ipswich!

Tarks has made errors as well but is the least experienced but most naturally talented of the CB's we have.

Think a tried and tested CB at this level is needed in January and then we need to find the best permutation and stick with it.

I can see the argument for a HD, Tarks partnership against Wolves. Just don't know if Warbs can afford to do without Craig's experience up at Wolves. A mighty big call from the Gaffer.
 

Centre Backs??

Balders Bee said:
Craig struggles physically with the best and strongest in this division but in terms of his experience and positional play and leadership is streets ahead of his two younger and more talented colleagues and Warbs values that.

Harlee frustrates the hell out of me, wins great headers, goes in for barnstorming tackles-Which usually he times perfectly-Never shirks a physical challenge and seldom loses one......then misplaces simple passes and headers gifting possession to opposition which will more often than not punish you at this level. Also his positional play goes out of the window on occasion as he goes hunting the ball rather than staying with his man or holding the line. Can he eradicate the mistakes which have now cost goals against Fulham, Blackburn and Ipswich!

Tarks has made errors as well but is the least experienced but most naturally talented of the CB's we have.

Think a tried and tested CB at this level is needed in January and then we need to find the best permutation and stick with it.

I can see the argument for a HD, Tarks partnership against Wolves. Just don't know if Warbs can afford to do without Craig's experience up at Wolves. A mighty big call from the Gaffer.
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Lot of truth in the above
 

Centre Backs??

Don't understand how people can say Dean has struggled. In fact I'm not sure there's any aspect where I'd rate TC above him (he's bigger, stronger, faster, a better passer, better in the air etc). He's made the odd mistake but then so has Craig (especially lately). Was pretty surprised he was dropped today if he wasn't being rested or carrying a knock etc. If I had to choose five of our best players this season he would be in that five.
 

Centre Backs??

Balders Bee said:
Craig struggles physically with the best and strongest in this division but in terms of his experience and positional play and leadership is streets ahead of his two younger and more talented colleagues and Warbs values that.

Harlee frustrates the hell out of me, wins great headers, goes in for barnstorming tackles-Which usually he times perfectly-Never shirks a physical challenge and seldom loses one......then misplaces simple passes and headers gifting possession to opposition which will more often than not punish you at this level. Also his positional play goes out of the window on occasion as he goes hunting the ball rather than staying with his man or holding the line. Can he eradicate the mistakes which have now cost goals against Fulham, Blackburn and Ipswich!

Tarks has made errors as well but is the least experienced but most naturally talented of the CB's we have.

Think a tried and tested CB at this level is needed in January and then we need to find the best permutation and stick with it.

I can see the argument for a HD, Tarks partnership against Wolves. Just don't know if Warbs can afford to do without Craig's experience up at Wolves. A mighty big call from the Gaffer.
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Harlee's driving runs (and a few great balls forward) have provided some proper impetus to the team when it felt like the team was going nowhere (or only backwards) at times, so for any mistakes he made I feel this (amongst all his other qualities) should not be forgotten, as it's worth a few goals itself.
As you say, it's got to be the concern as to experience/leadership/positioning which must be the reason we don't play JT/HD, or at least I hope so :p
 

Centre Backs??

Tarks did fine today. TC was ok but we need Niger and stronger.
 

Centre Backs??

Big gay Nige, nocoat's mate !?
 

Centre Backs??

I think it's been obvious all season that we could do with a centre back at this level...don't get me wrong I love Craig and Dean but I'd rather them as back up, obviously telling them that they'd probably want to go for first team football, but the defence has been leaking goals all season.

With that said we do play a very attacking brand of football so be careful what you wish for because the grass isn't always greener with other players and Dean has some growing as a player to do and Craig is a fantastic captain.
 

Centre Backs??

Centre Backs??

Just got back.

Apologies for my fat typing fingers and the embarrassing typing error!!

Moving rapidly on....

I hope we end Jan with Tarky and a new partner as our centre backs with TC in reserve.

Assuming we make a major new signing then. I am guessing it's sayonara to Harlee.
 

Centre Backs??

How TC remains in the team beggars belief. Except for one great block in one match he has been off for at least 6 games. Time to move on.

Thought JT did fine considering the time he has been out.

Rather we have JT/HD and or new Central Back in January.
 

Centre Backs??

On current form, Craig needs dropping. He's a terrific captain but he has looked out of his depth of late. Big and mobile strikers have him in their pocket.
 

Centre Backs??

North London Bee said:
I hope we end Jan with Tarky and a new partner as our centre backs with TC in reserve.
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Yep - Tarky is a class act and showed it again today. A really solid performance given he has been out for a while.
 

Centre Backs??

I think there's little doubt that Tarky is the best footballing centre half we have but I'm not sure at this stage he's the most effective. Every mistake Harlee makes is highlighted but what about those JT made against Norwich, Fulham (cup) and Watford all of which led to goals? I'm not sure what the solution is to be honest because TC is certainly the weak link yet I still think we need his experience. I think HD was desperately unlucky to lose his place TBH...
 

Centre Backs??

Tarkowski made mistakes yesterday - particularly getting too high up the pitch - so none of our three are perfect but that's also a function of the way we play with the full backs pushing on and Douglas (and/or Diagouraga/Judge/whoever) covering. Perhaps we should be thinking of the "central defensive triangle": a right side centre back; a left side centre back; a defensive midfielder, as a combination.
 

Centre Backs??

I'd like to see Tarks and Harlee given a run out together. I know neither are left sided C/H's but with Tarks ability I am sure he would cope. I just think they would gel together well in a short space of time. TC is a great C/H but is beginning to show his limitations at this level. It is just my opinion and am willing to be shot down on this but, it would be a chance to try this in the cup game against Brighton. You never know.
 

Centre Backs??

Bigbee said:
he is quite small but isnt that a bit if an over exaggeration ?
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Nope. Craig has not played well of late, and has been outmuscled off the ball, failed to win headers, and been bullied off the ball on a number of occasions, especially in 4 from the last 5 games, or including Cardiff, where he failed to deal with Kenwyn Jones. I admire Craig in many ways, and I want him (like nearly every player who puts on a Brentford shirt) to do well. However, I don't believe that Craig deals with big powerful strikers very well. Harlee is much more physical, but also struggles under pressure and his use of the ball when in possession is not as good. That's why I am subscribing to the opinion that Tarky plus a new centre-back might be the way forward for us.
 

Centre Backs??

ade211 said:
This should link to Squawka results for our defenders.


http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...odubajo/127/127/15167/0/p#defensive_errors#90

Worth looking at.
Click to expand...

Very interesting.

Interceptions Per Game

Craig - 2
Dean - 1.73
Tarkowski -2.23
Bidwell - 0.79
Odubajo - 1.3

Blocks Per Game

Craig - 1.1
Dean - 0.88
Tarkowski - 1.46
Bidwell - 0.29
Odubajo - 0

Clearances Per Game

Craig - 10
Dean - 11.5
Tarkowski - 9.31
Bidwell - 4.87
Odubajo - 1.91

Defensive Errors (Leading to Goal)
Craig - 3 (1)
Dean - 1 (1)
Tarkowski - 4 (1)
Bidwell - 0
Odubajo - 1 (0)

Passes (Success Rate)

Craig - 42.15 (81)
Dean - 41.56 (74)
Tarkowski - 41.54 (81)
Bidwell - 35.75 (75)
Odubajo - 32.83 (80)

Key Passes (Assists)

Craig - 3 (1)
Dean - 2 (1)
Tarkowski - 3 (0)
Bidwell - 13 (3)
Odubajo - 25 (3)

Tackles Won - Tackles Lost

Craig - 0.8 - 1.1
Dean - 1.38 - 0.5
Tarkowski - 1.15 - 1.08
Bidwell - 1.25 - 0.96
Odubajo - 1.13 - 0.87

Aerial Duels Won (%)

Craig - 70.37
Dean - 67.74
Tarkowski - 70.59
Bidwell - 49.04
Odubajo - 12.9

Total Duels Won (%)

Craig - 61.11
Dean - 66.09
Tarkowski - 63.16
Bidwell - 49.17
Odubajo - 53.97

Fouls Suffered Per Game

Craig - 0.7
Dean - 0.62
Tarkowski - 0.62
Bidwell - 0.92
Odubajo - 1.91

Fouls Committed Per Game

Craig - 0.5
Dean - 0.75
Tarkowski - 0.92
Bidwell - 0.83
Odubajo - 0.52

Red Cards

Craig - 1
Dean - 0
Tarkowski - 0
Bidwell - 0
Odubajo - 0

Yellow Cards

Craig - 5
Dean - 3
Tarkowski - 5
Bidwell - 4
Odubajo - 1
 
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