Middlesex CCC
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TW3Bee
Can We Play You Every Week
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
Middlesex CCC
rare to agree with you on a cricketing matter but....
i'm a big basketball fan, and they've suffered in the NBA in recent years through expanding the league... now there are too many teams and, frankly, not enough good players
it seems similar in English cricket. we have too many teams, so each team has one or two good uns and five or six mediocre players.
what do we have, 18 teams? how many teams are there in the top Aussie domestic competition?
how can we ever change it? which counties do we dissolve?! none, obvioulsy - everyone fights change. so we're buggered
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The Joker
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Middlesex CCC
A Straight forward victory tonight against the Slurrey
Indeed.
Quite enjoyed the view from the Long Room too.
TW3Bee
Can We Play You Every Week
Middlesex CCC
rare to agree with you on a cricketing matter but....
i'm a big basketball fan, and they've suffered in the NBA in recent years through expanding the league... now there are too many teams and, frankly, not enough good players
it seems similar in English cricket. we have too many teams, so each team has one or two good uns and five or six mediocre players.
what do we have, 18 teams? how many teams are there in the top Aussie domestic competition?
how can we ever change it? which counties do we dissolve?! none, obvioulsy - everyone fights change. so we're buggered
Aren't the ECB planning something along the lines of the IPL T20 competition, where they will have teams from major cities e.g. a London team with the best players from Surrey, Middlesex and Essex.
Banshee Mildew
<---- Fake or Real?
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
Middlesex CCC
:shrug:
that's lovely and all, and obviously it's the future of cricket, but test cricket's the "real" game and our production line's naff
that's lovely and all, and obviously it's the future of cricket, but test cricket's the "real" game and our production line's naff
West Ealing Bee
Only Reading
Middlesex CCC
it seems similar in English cricket. we have too many teams, so each team has one or two good uns and five or six mediocre players.
what do we have, 18 teams? how many teams are there in the top Aussie domestic competition?
how can we ever change it? which counties do we dissolve?! none, obvioulsy - everyone fights change. so we're buggered
England has 18 counties, Australia has six state teams which compete in the main competition (the Sheffield Shield).
You could argue that given that the UK has a population of around 60.5m and Australia is about 20m having three times as many teams is about right
It's the intensity of the cricket that is the problem IMHO, too much stock is put in the number of games you can play rather than focussing on intense, meaningful county matches.
The step up to test cricket is massive because everyone is in the same boat. county bowlers do not provide the test of batting skills required because most of them are knackered and therefore you can get away with lapses in concentration and you get more balls to hit.
If there was one four-day match a week in the early stages of the season (maybe three conferences of six teams playing home and away so you end up with the best four playing knock out cricket in late August) the standard would improve manifestly.
But counties won't vote for fewer games.
The influx of foreign players (Kolpak or otherwise) is also an issue but that's a red herring IMHO.
There are at least 100 English qualified cricketers playing CC games every week, it's just that the standard is low.
weymouth bee
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Middlesex CCC
A Straight forward victory tonight against the Slurrey
Nice to know that the best team won.............
TW3Bee
Can We Play You Every Week
West Ealing Bee
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Middlesex CCC
That is another alternative to my plan and would work just as well.
My idea also allows for localised groups with teams nearby facing off.
Having two Middlesex v Surrey matches every year guaranteed and two Roses matches might help sweeten the counties :shrug:
TW3Bee
Can We Play You Every Week
Middlesex CCC
Middlesex still haven't really recovered from when that happened to them.
When they were dominating cricket in the 80's and had have the England team playing for them.
The likes of Graham Barlow, Clive Radley, Mike Brearley, Phil Edmonds, John Emburey and Mike Gatting all retired around about the same time and had to rebuild an entire new team and have basically won FA since then.
Edmundo
Whinging pom
Middlesex CCC
England has 18 counties, Australia has six state teams which compete in the main competition (the Sheffield Shield).
You could argue that given that the UK has a population of around 60.5m and Australia is about 20m having three times as many teams is about right
It's the intensity of the cricket that is the problem IMHO, too much stock is put in the number of games you can play rather than focussing on intense, meaningful county matches.
The step up to test cricket is massive because everyone is in the same boat. county bowlers do not provide the test of batting skills required because most of them are knackered and therefore you can get away with lapses in concentration and you get more balls to hit.
If there was one four-day match a week in the early stages of the season (maybe three conferences of six teams playing home and away so you end up with the best four playing knock out cricket in late August) the standard would improve manifestly.
But counties won't vote for fewer games.
The influx of foreign players (Kolpak or otherwise) is also an issue but that's a red herring IMHO.
There are at least 100 English qualified cricketers playing CC games every week, it's just that the standard is low.
The "our population is three times that of Australia" argument is always being wheeled out by the status quo do nothing brigade in bacon and egg ties, but it's nonsense. How many first class teams should India have by that reckoning? The fact is that all countries only have one national side and the tier just below that should have no more than five or six teams, playing each other home and away in four-day, one-day and T20 - with play-offs and finals in the limited over games. This would sustain a pool of around 100 players who should all be qualified to play for England plus a few major international stars as coaches/inspiration. I'd set it up based around major cities and let county cricket revert to the days of amateurism. This way we can focus resources on developing the brightest talent and make First Class cricket a better platform for developing and maintaining a pool of players able to play Test cricket. We waste too much money on journeymen who are hanging on for a benefit and so-so international players, not to mention the blasted Kolpaks.
weymouth bee
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Middlesex CCC
We were really great then, weren't we and I remember all those names as well. Brearley and Barlow those names does make me feel old though......
West Ealing Bee
Only Reading
Middlesex CCC
Clearly you missed this fella
:shrug:Anyway...........................
I have a few questions/issues with that summary/idea.
1) How do you get a pool of 100 qualified England players plus international stars from 5 or 6 11-a-side teams? Are they going to have 20-man squads? Is that financially sustainable?
2) Do you really believe Kolpak cricketers are stopping the best Englishmen coming to the fore. Leicestershire and Northamptonshire (the two counties picked on most on this issue) have produced Stuart Broad and Monty Panesar in the last few years :shrug:
As I said, I think it's a red herring :shrug:
3) Why will these five or six city teams pick young cricketers rather than the "journeymen hanging on for a benefit". Would London pick Ramprakash (who will never play for England again) or James Hildrith? Would a city rather have Craig Spearman and Stuart Law (both English by law) or an 18-year-old who might or might not make it. The aspiration of first class cricket is dramatically reduced (especially if you make the next level down amateur).
A Utopian idea of test quality first class cricket with fewer games and an intensity unlike we've seen is wonderful - I just wonder if it would actually work out like that :shrug:
TW3Bee
Can We Play You Every Week
Middlesex CCC
We were really great then, weren't we and I remember all those names as well. Brearley and Barlow those names does make me feel old though......
And not forgetting the late Wilf Slack.
I remember that playing for Middlesex almost guarnteed you a place in the England team.
Roland Butcher score a rapid 50 in the 1980 Gillette Cup Final victory over Surrey and the next day more or less he was picked for England.
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
Middlesex CCC
indeed. they always claim they need the home games for gate receipts for budget. maybe with 20-20 being so successful, if they make a profit there then the ECB can convince them that a sustainable loss in 4-day cricket can be justified, for the greater good.
but that's a helluva long road to go down, and English sport management seems to lack the balls for this sort of thing...
TW3Bee
Can We Play You Every Week
Edmundo
Whinging pom
Middlesex CCC
18 to 20 man squads. County cricket as currently designed isn't financially sustainable and depends on massive payouts from the ECB from its international cricket revenue streams. It would be more sustainable than the current system.Clearly you missed this fella
Anyway...........................
I have a few questions/issues with that summary/idea.
1) How do you get a pool of 100 qualified England players plus international stars from 5 or 6 11-a-side teams? Are they going to have 20-man squads? Is that financially sustainable?
It's not the main issue for me, but my vision would be that this second tier of cricket is about creating the correct environment for English cricket to flourish - if there were 50-60 Kolpaks in a pool of 120 players, this would present serious difficulties and defeat the point.West Ealing Bee said:
They would pick players according to the policies laid down in the competition rules. There wouldn't be journeymen hanging on for a benefit because benefits should be scrapped and cricketers properly remunerated in the first place. Plenty of room for a Stuart Law as a coach/inspiration.West Ealing Bee said:
Not exactly Utopia - check out how State cricket works in Australia.West Ealing Bee said:
That's not what they claim at all - it's about their members wanting plenty of days of cricket at the home venue. Four day cricket loses money.
rebus
On my final warning
Middlesex CCC
You could argue that given that the UK has a population of around 60.5m and Australia is about 20m having three times as many teams is about right
I agree with this. It's also down to the training and culture that is below County cricket too. Aussie club cricket is a far higher standard and more skillful, as ours seems to be more aggressive and an emphasis on facilities plus a good spread for tea rather then actually having decent cricketers.
West Ealing Bee
Only Reading
Middlesex CCC
But realistically how many of those will play a decent enough amount of cricket to make them battle-hardened for the next step up.
We will still have a pool of 60-70 maximum, which includes the "international stars", and less players to choose from than we do already.
The trouble is how to convince the teams competing that the main idea is to create "the correct environment for English cricket to flourish".
We need competitve cricket, to get the most competitive cricket you need prizes and prize money and as soon as that is introduced the need to win the money outweighs everything else, as we have seen in many other sports in this country.
Employment law can't be changed so the Kolpak situation is one we are likely to be stuck with and in order to prevent teams taking the Kolpak option - and in general a Kolpak player will be better than their English equivalent - you need to incentivise it.
One you go down that road the incentives to play English players need to be greater than the incentives to win matches -or teams won't do it - and all of a sudden you are in a scenario where results don't matter all that much and the intensity of the sport is reduced :shrug:
I never disagreed that Australia had just about the perfect system - I questioned whether it could be made to work here, and I still do.
TOMOGP
Active member
Middlesex CCC
Very interesting and agree with the general acceptance that the county game is "poor"
However what must be looked at is the season which is basically nearly just 5 months long and trying to fit in all the 40/50 over games plus the 20/20 is hard and the result crap basically. for example middlesex went 14 days recently without a fixture why? I am sure it happens with other counties also.
The Surrey President/Chairman not sure which was interviewed on Sky last week and said "they make more money from one 20/20 game than all the county fixtures, yet it is the county fixtures that should be used to build a strong test squad.
On this finance I asked an official at Lords last night why Middx were playing
2 20/20 games away from Lords as the total crowd for the games at ODP & Uxbridge would be a third of one game at Lords the answer pitch wear.
personally I would go for 3 divisions of 6 for the County Championship, all matchs played Mon to Friday leaving the weekends free for all the one day and 20/20 games. I would also do away with central contracts as that means some players are totally over worked and others can coast
However what must be looked at is the season which is basically nearly just 5 months long and trying to fit in all the 40/50 over games plus the 20/20 is hard and the result crap basically. for example middlesex went 14 days recently without a fixture why? I am sure it happens with other counties also.
The Surrey President/Chairman not sure which was interviewed on Sky last week and said "they make more money from one 20/20 game than all the county fixtures, yet it is the county fixtures that should be used to build a strong test squad.
On this finance I asked an official at Lords last night why Middx were playing
2 20/20 games away from Lords as the total crowd for the games at ODP & Uxbridge would be a third of one game at Lords the answer pitch wear.
personally I would go for 3 divisions of 6 for the County Championship, all matchs played Mon to Friday leaving the weekends free for all the one day and 20/20 games. I would also do away with central contracts as that means some players are totally over worked and others can coast
Edmundo
Whinging pom
Middlesex CCC
Doing away with central contracts would be a disaster - why let the county game which loses millions take priority over the national side which generates all the money? Madness.
And the reason why Middlesex don't play all their home T20 games at Lords is because it isn't their ground, so they have to bow to the MCC's concerns about pitch wear and nonsense like the Varsity match.
And the reason why Middlesex don't play all their home T20 games at Lords is because it isn't their ground, so they have to bow to the MCC's concerns about pitch wear and nonsense like the Varsity match.
West Ealing Bee
Only Reading
Middlesex CCC
The central contract system has its flaws but it means the best players stay fresh.
I heard somehwere that Angus Fraser, Darren Gough and Andrew Caddick never played in the same England team as they were never all fit at the same time - mainly due to being bowled into the ground, how good an attack would that have been
That situation doesn't arise now and although Fletcher got things a little wrong with bowlers at certain times there is little doubt in my mind we are seeing the best of players like Sidebottom and Anderson as they are playing the optimum amount of cricket to be peaking at the right times.
Les Beeavinu
Administrator
Middlesex CCC
That is certainly true for bowlers but I believe that batsman need to bat regularly to stay in form so I think less cricket is counter-productive for them.
rebus
On my final warning
Middlesex CCC
I'm glad they do. It's a shame the old Hounslow Cricket Club ground wasn't rebuilt and made into a T20 venue. You'd have people queueing round the block to get in.
TOMOGP
Active member
Middlesex CCC
I made the point about pitch wear and it is accepted that the MCC & Middlesex have a mixed relationship.
Varsity nonsense
ok its not for me or many other people but the MCC has a role to play in the development of cricket ie the recent MCC tour of China spreading the word. Also don't the egg chasers play the varsity match at Twickers?Do you call the Village cup final the Cockspur final & the minor counties final which are all part of the promotion of the game being played there nonsense to, it is no different to the play of finals or minor cup finals being played at Wembley really is it
Jimbee
Who's the dummy?
Middlesex CCC
It's not that long since Surrey played T20 at Imber Court as well as the other 2 venues they use for matches.
There are a few of the county sides that still bother to use more than one venue to make the game accessible to more people.
I don't doubt that MCC is the reason that they can't play all their matches at Lord's, but I think it's a marketing masterstroke by Middlesex to venture into the territory of their biggest rivals to host a game.
TW3Bee
Can We Play You Every Week
Middlesex CCC
I did a story for the Chronicle a few years back about a former Hounslow player turned businessman who wanted to redevelop the ground into a community cricketing venue and had the backing of Middlesex. After years of the council dragging its feet, he lost interest. Another triumph for Hounslow Council
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OP
Ace Face
Well-known member
Middlesex CCC
As a long suffering Middlesex fan who has seen his team ripped apart by the loyalty to Embers, it is great to see Middlesex overtake Essex and become Londons best team once again.
I also think it is time to forgive Mr RampraCASH for joining the team that plays inbetween Hampshire and Sussex somewhere. However if he kisses his badge on Friday the 27th.
I also think it is time to forgive Mr RampraCASH for joining the team that plays inbetween Hampshire and Sussex somewhere. However if he kisses his badge on Friday the 27th.
SpiderBee
Surrey Wyvern
Middlesex CCC
I spoke with some members of Old Isleworthians & Heston CC last month and there are plans to lobby the local council to bring cricket back to the old Hounslow ground.
I remember opening the bowling there once in an all day game just as the church bells went off.
Wonderful!
SpiderBee
Surrey Wyvern
Middlesex CCC
Now let me have your spin on the current 2nd XI squad!
I wont post my opinions as I may fall foul of the Surrey Cricket Board!
Somerset Forever!
TW3Bee
Can We Play You Every Week
Middlesex CCC
I spoke with some members of Old Isleworthians & Heston CC last month and there are plans to lobby the local council to bring cricket back to the old Hounslow ground.
I remember opening the bowling there once in an all day game just as the church bells went off.
Wonderful!
They had some big names play for Hounslow.
I think one of them was Greg Ritchie and there might have been a couple of Indian Test players as well.
Middlesex CCC
I spoke with some members of Old Isleworthians & Heston CC last month and there are plans to lobby the local council to bring cricket back to the old Hounslow ground.
I remember opening the bowling there once in an all day game just as the church bells went off.
Wonderful!
Old I&H have quite a few ex-Hounslow players in their ranks like Tony Parker and Martin Aylett, and in a few weeks time are playing an Old I&H v Hounslow Old Boys match. When I asked if it would be at Church Meadows, the answer was along the lines of 'have you seen the state of it recently?' :sad:
Simon T
Bees Up Fulham Down
Middlesex CCC
It looks like there is big change ahead with the Championship being split into 3 random 6 team groups to make room for more Twenty20 games
http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/355429.html
If they are going to do away with tradition, how about doing something that would really benefit the test team. I'd like to see the counties only play 1 day games and have a new first class structure made up of 6 regions (SE, SW, NE, NW, E Mids, W Mids) + an ECB Academy of the best under 23 players for the first class game. The counties aren't too unhappy as they tend to play first class games in 3/4 empty grounds, a regional structure would still allow you to make use of the test standard grounds and you would get a better standard of competition plus the opportunity to blood some of your more promising players against tough competition 1 step below test standard.
http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/355429.html
If they are going to do away with tradition, how about doing something that would really benefit the test team. I'd like to see the counties only play 1 day games and have a new first class structure made up of 6 regions (SE, SW, NE, NW, E Mids, W Mids) + an ECB Academy of the best under 23 players for the first class game. The counties aren't too unhappy as they tend to play first class games in 3/4 empty grounds, a regional structure would still allow you to make use of the test standard grounds and you would get a better standard of competition plus the opportunity to blood some of your more promising players against tough competition 1 step below test standard.
Les Beeavinu
Administrator
Middlesex CCC
... but when the going gets tough ....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/shared...et/scorecards/2008/6/14583/html/scorecard.stm
Ambrose_1889
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TW3Bee
Can We Play You Every Week
Edmundo
Whinging pom
Middlesex CCC
This idea of Giles Clarke's would be a seriously retrograde step. I quite like your suggestion, but it probably runs up against the counties desire to provide their members with as many days of first class cricket to watch as possible, and milk the money that the international game brings in to fund it.
The H
poker semi-professional
Les Beeavinu
Administrator
Middlesex CCC
I see Kent won again - Joe Denly has passed 50 in all four T20 matches played so far.
91 today as Kent pass 200. Kent players don't get picked for England though. :grey:
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
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Ace Face
Well-known member
Middlesex CCC
The two losses havce shown that Middlesex CCC has no strength in depth and rely to much on Henderson.
The best bowler in the world Kartik is just warming up, so maybe we can win a cup this year and maybe also get into Europe.
The best bowler in the world Kartik is just warming up, so maybe we can win a cup this year and maybe also get into Europe.
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