Sack Butcher

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Sack Butcher

We are heading to the conference. We have the worst set of players in 45 years of watching bees. The smallest crowds. We need leadership. There are so many good managers in the conference that it seems a stupid decision to employ him. Lets list a few who would consider GP- Mark Stimson, Jim Harvey......
 

Sack Butcher

But it is still the same set of players.
 

Sack Butcher

After 3 manager changes and 3 set's of new players (Fitz in Jan) I think the problem goes beyond the players and manager to be honest.
 

Sack Butcher

Edmundo said:
I'm sorry, but I don't think this would be the right thing to do.
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No need to apologise, I don't blame you personally.
 

Sack Butcher

Jimbee said:
Andy Scott is the one who is on dodgy ground at the moment IMO.
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He was a joke appointment. The Butcher situation reminds me (as I said at the time) of when Frank McLintock got the manager's job back in 1984, with absolutely no knowledge of lower league football. He was seen purely as a figurehead with good PR skills but the choice of John Docherty as his assistant at least gave him a fighting chance. Many of us will remember the dross that was dished up when Docherty left McLintock on his own, he was the most clueless manager I have seen in nearly 40 years.

When Terry Butcher got the job with a self-confessed lack of any knowledge of league two, the choice of his number two was always going to be crucial. Andy Scott came in with talk of having lists of players who could do a decent job and boasting of an understanding of lower league football. It's been a disastrous appointment, without doubt and one that I wouldn't mind betting Butcher is now sorely regretting.

I suspect that in the not too distant future, Scott will be as popular with the fans as he was for the majority of his time here as a player (for those who seem to recall his playing days through rose-tinted glasses).
 

Sack Butcher

It may be correct to hold Scott rather than Butcher accountable for the poor choice of players, but they are the players that we have for the next two seasons, even if the management team is changed.
 

Sack Butcher

Edmundo said:
It may be correct to hold Scott rather than Butcher accountable for the poor choice of players, but they are the players that we have for the next two seasons, even if the management team is changed.
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Ed, read that back to yourself pal, the clue is in "TWO SEASONS"
 

Sack Butcher

I tend to agree, Andy Scott, is scapegoat numero uno at present.
If anyone should leave, it should be him.
Butcher said, he knew nothing of the lower leagues when he came to us and was reliant on Scott bringing in the necessary players to do the job for us.
He has failed on this task. The players we have brought in are lightweight, young novices, which is not what is needed for this Division.

Butcher in my mind (& Scott) have not done their homework on the teams we are playing against in the future. That is evident to see. You need to do lots on miles on the road, travelling up and down the country, watching your up and coming opponents and seeing what their strengths and weaknesses are. They have not done that.

They should also know by now, what players should be playing in what position. Thorpe is definitely not a centre half. He was partly to blame for the third Stockport goal and the penalty tonight against Dagenham and then there was that sending off ! The man is a liability in my eyes. Definitely not a centre half and I've seen a lot better centre forwards.

When Moushino came on as a sub tonight, there was some fight in the middle of the park and one crunching tackle he put in, just in front of Butcher, brought no emotion whatsoever from our Manager. He just stood there, arms folded. Maybe that is why our team play with a limited amount of passion, because this is being conveyed by the Boss. I was hoping he would encourage such spirit from Moushino, but no, he just stood there, oblivious to everything, or so it seemed to me.

I despair with my Football Club right now.

Greg Dyke knows nothing about Football and in my mind he should've brought in a spirited up and coming Manager, from the lower leagues. Someone who had something to prove, a desire to succeed, a hunger. I just don't see that in Butcher. But Scott to go first please.
 

Sack Butcher

And Terry Butchers Bees hat is too small for him.
 

Sack Butcher

Oh so Scott's the scapegoat now:nono: ....don't disagree that some of the tactical decisions this evening were once again baffling and for that the management is culpable but it beats me as to how anyone can reach the conclusion that Scott is responsible for the current predicament we find ourselves in.

Some of the younger players brought in could develop into decent players and shown some potential. Tactically we got it wrong tonight no bite in the middle until Mouse came on and nothing stuck up top until Thorpe started to win a few headers. The tactical buck stops with Butcher. For all we know Scott might have played it entirely differently.

Having said that I think it's far too soon to talk about sacking Butcher either. He's had a uninspiring start but I think both he and Scott inherited mission bloody impossible and their performance so far doesn't merit the kind of scapegoat mentality that some Bees fans seem hellbent on adopting.
 

Sack Butcher

Martin allens looking for a job ? Now theres a man with passion . Short sighted board now has got us in this mess and has lost alot more money than mr allen wanted too boost the squad.
 

Sack Butcher

We can't afford to sack Butcher but if he decided he wanted to quit mgmt to become a full-time pundit, I'd be delighted.

The decision to start Thorpe at the back - after what we'd seen Saturday - must raise serious doubts about his tactical awareness and most of the team looked disorganised and demotivated

Hard to say what is down to Butcher and what to Scott, but if Butcher selected Scott as his assistant, it all comes back to him anyway. Of the permanent signings, only Connell has really looked the part, though others might come good with better organisation and tactics
 

Sack Butcher

beedeleted said:
We are heading to the conference. We have the worst set of players in 45 years of watching bees. The smallest crowds. We need leadership. There are so many good managers in the conference that it seems a stupid decision to employ him. Lets list a few who would consider GP- Mark Stimson, Jim Harvey......
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I think your user name should be acted upon....
 

Sack Butcher

Balders Bee said:
Oh so Scott's the scapegoat now:nono: ....don't disagree that some of the tactical decisions this evening were once again baffling and for that the management is culpable but it beats me as to how anyone can reach the conclusion that Scott is responsible for the current predicament we find ourselves in.

Some of the younger players brought in could develop into decent players and shown some potential.

Having said that I think it's far too soon to talk about sacking Butcher either. He's had a uninspiring start but I think both he and Scott inherited mission bloody impossible and their performance so far doesn't merit the kind of scapegoat mentality that some Bees fans seem hellbent on adopting.
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:imwith:

I haven't seen the team play and am unable to form any judgment other than by looking at the results and reading the reports. Part of the problem is the expectations raised by both Dyke and Dickens making statements regarding promotion at the first ask and that the board had handed the team management a promotion budget. That may or may not be true but I thought that this was very unfair comment at the time and made some play of it on the GPG. It struck me that the executive management was palming off the responsibility too early in the game and just to get the heat off them.

Whilst recognising that Dyke and Dickens were trying to flog 5000 season tickets at the time Butcher himself tried to damp down promotion talk by referring more than once to a season of "consolidation". That is not of course what people wish to hear (translation) "Stick with us........there may be a season of midtable dross but many of the squad are on two year contracts and by next year we'll be ready to go". There is no room for manoeuvre as far as I know. The playing budget has been spent and you could bring in Mourinho with Wenger as his assistant and they still have to work with the same squad.

All very depressing though.
 

Sack Butcher

.................not yet......................
 

Sack Butcher

West Ealing Bee said:
I bet you're wrong on that score :wave:
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If they had, they would've had some semblance of knowledge of how to deal with McNeil on Saturday, against Stockport.
I don't belief they did or do such preparationly work beforehand.
It sure as hell doesn't show on matchdays.
 

Sack Butcher

i'm so confused, just looking at the league table and we are 3 points off the play offs............
 

Sack Butcher

abee said:
Part of the problem is the expectations raised by both Dyke and Dickens making statements regarding promotion at the first ask and that the board had handed the team management a promotion budget. .
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Why is it I feel like some kind of mushroom with the above ?
Being fed bull**** once again, that's it.
 

Sack Butcher

Infatuated Bees Alter Ego said:
If they had, they would've had some semblance of knowledge of how to deal with McNeil on Saturday, against Stockport.
I don't belief they did or do such preparationly work beforehand.
It sure as hell doesn't show on matchdays.
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I can tell you for a fact we have every team watched beforehand, at least once and often by Andy Scott.

You can choose to believe that or not :shrug:

How that comes across on matchdays is a different issue but if you watch the bench it seems rather apparant the players aren't doing what is asked of them a lot of the time :wave:
 

Sack Butcher

yet we are getting some good results away from home...as far as i am concerned the jury is still out on butcher and therefore the benefit of the doubt is in his court
 

Sack Butcher

With apologies to Oscar Wilde, to go 3-0 down at home against MK Dons was a misfortune; in the next match to go 3-0 down at home to Stockport could be regarded as careless; but to go 3-0 down at home for a third consecutive time against Dagenham & Redbridge was incompetent.

Trouble is, I'm not sure who is incompetent and what can be done about it. I just hope everyone at the club is having a close look at themselves this morning and asking themselves what they may have done wrong, and what they could do better next time.....
 

Sack Butcher

beeeehive said:
After 3 manager changes and 3 set's of new players (Fitz in Jan) I think the problem goes beyond the players and manager to be honest.
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Yes.... someone else agrees. :sorted:
 

Sack Butcher

butcher out keep scott..... scott's the one who ran to the referee when 2 pens were awarded to stockport ...hes the one with the passion butchers here for nothing get him out...!
 

Sack Butcher

BeesManMax said:
butcher out keep scott..... scott's the one who ran to the referee when 2 pens were awarded to stockport ...hes the one with the passion butchers here for nothing get him out...!
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Right !

thats it...I've decided, as a voice of positivity, to clamp down on foolishness today...

BUTCHER CAN'T FKIN RUN, HE'S GOT DODGY KNEES !!!!

As for not being "shouty"....
Who is considered the better manager...Steve Coppell or Neil Warnock ?
 

Sack Butcher

Infatuated Bees Alter Ego said:
Butcher in my mind (& Scott) have not done their homework on the teams we are playing against in the future. That is evident to see. You need to do lots on miles on the road, travelling up and down the country, watching your up and coming opponents and seeing what their strengths and weaknesses are. They have not done that.
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Don't know whether you have noticed or not, but we play our games at the same time most weeks as all the other teams, so how exactly do they see other games and future opponents? :confused:
What actually happens is that the club will have a scouting network of sorts and someone else will view opponents games and give reports back. Do we have anyone doing this job? I would have thought that rathe rthan sit on te bench with the 1st team someone like Marshall coul dbe helping out in this area. :idea: It could of course again come down to cost too. :fishing: :wave:
 

Sack Butcher

We seem to only show the right tempo and full commitment once we are 3 down. Surely the simple thing is to play like we did in the last 25 minutes last night at the start of the game. A high tempo, quicker passing and more direct play at times, will work wonders against sluggish defenders.

Will we do it though?
 

Sack Butcher

Gee Bee said:
Don't know whether you have noticed or not, but we play our games at the same time most weeks as all the other teams, so how exactly do they see other games and future opponents? :confused:
What actually happens is that the club will have a scouting network of sorts and someone else will view opponents games and give reports back. Do we have anyone doing this job? I would have thought that rathe rthan sit on te bench with the 1st team someone like Marshall coul dbe helping out in this area. :idea: It could of course again come down to cost too. :fishing: :wave:
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Gee Bee, it's ok, I know who it is now. Some old chap, with a white stick. That's the bloke :wave:
 

Sack Butcher

Oh dear.

First of all, sacking Butcher would be a disaster. It would cost us a fortune and there are no guarantees we would be able to get a manager in who would be able to do any better/worse. Unfortunately we have a manager who has little experience of the league we are in and it will take him a while to adjust, just as it is taking us, the fans, a while to adjust to this stupid league. What Butcher does have tho is experience of football. I dont think the BBC would employ him as a commentator and columnist if they thought he knew sweet fa about the beautiful game.

More specifically, after last nights 'performance' I dont think you can criticise TB tactically because he was willing to make the change and get Mosinho on early and then get Thorpe up top when that third goal went in. I would like to suggest that it was these sort of decisions that Leroy couldnt make and thats why we should stick with TB.

Finally, I agree with Shirley Bee, conceeding this many goals at home is terrible! And when you look at it, the vast majority are defensive errors. If Thorpe is going to go lunging in with a stupid tackle 2 mins after half time with us 1-0 down, I dont think there is much TB can do about it! Another two pens at the weekend and Pettigrew getting beaten for pace by Chris Moore last night - what do you want Butcher to do, go and hold his hand?! I think once we've sorted out these mistakes all will be good again on the good ship Brentford, promotion here we come!
 

Sack Butcher

Infatuated Bees Alter Ego said:
Gee Bee, it's ok, I know who it is now. Some old chap, with a white stick. That's the bloke :wave:
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So you agree that Butcher & Scott have difficulty watching future opponents, or do you think one should have been away watching Herford last night? :wave:
 

Sack Butcher

Egham Andy said:
Oh dear.

First of all, sacking Butcher would be a disaster. It would cost us a fortune and there are no guarantees we would be able to get a manager in who would be able to do any better/worse. Unfortunately we have a manager who has little experience of the league we are in and it will take him a while to adjust, just as it is taking us, the fans, a while to adjust to this stupid league. What Butcher does have tho is experience of football. I dont think the BBC would employ him as a commentator and columnist if they thought he knew sweet fa about the beautiful game.

More specifically, after last nights 'performance' I dont think you can criticise TB tactically because he was willing to make the change and get Mosinho on early and then get Thorpe up top when that third goal went in. I would like to suggest that it was these sort of decisions that Leroy couldnt make and thats why we should stick with TB.

Finally, I agree with Shirley Bee, conceeding this many goals at home is terrible! And when you look at it, the vast majority are defensive errors. If Thorpe is going to go lunging in with a stupid tackle 2 mins after half time with us 1-0 down, I dont think there is much TB can do about it! Another two pens at the weekend and Pettigrew getting beaten for pace by Chris Moore last night - what do you want Butcher to do, go and hold his hand?! I think once we've sorted out these mistakes all will be good again on the good ship Brentford, promotion here we come!
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While I agree that sacking Butcher is not the right thing, he must take responsibility for setting the team up wrongly - O'Connor upfront and Thorpe in defence was tactically wrong. If we had Thorpe up front and played Osborne at the back from the start we may have had a different result. Certainly might have scored more :shrug:

One thing though - we fought back, last year we would have lost 4/5 nil, this time we fought back - so some hope
 

Sack Butcher

about 15 mins of good football and the rest was just crap butcher and gutles scott must go now plz ger allen back this club is conferance bound
 

Sack Butcher

This transitional slide must not be allowed to continue for too long.
 

Sack Butcher

Gee Bee said:
So you agree that Butcher & Scott have difficulty watching future opponents, or do you think one should have been away watching Herford last night? :wave:
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I guess that's why we needed a scout....oh.....wait a minute.
 

Sack Butcher

Gee Bee said:
So you agree that Butcher & Scott have difficulty watching future opponents, or do you think one should have been away watching Herford last night? :wave:
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Martin Allen managed to do it. I don't hear about Butcher, Scott or anyone else at the club doing this task, until today that is.

Look, whoever it is at the club who has been tasked with this role, is not doing a very job in my opinion. McNeil ran rings around us on Saturday. He caused us a great deal of problems and from where I was sitting, we didn't have a clue how to deal with it. We were not prepared.
 

Sack Butcher

BeesManMax said:
butcher out keep scott..... scott's the one who ran to the referee when 2 pens were awarded to stockport ...hes the one with the passion butchers here for nothing get him out...!
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I've seen him run to the ref after every game we've played at home moaning about something.... Maybe if he worked on stopping his players fouling in the box he wouldn't need too. We all know he doesn't need the strain on his heart...

Failing that, maybe next week he can get a chant of 'The Referee's a w*anker' going from the dugout.. Get the fans on his side, and forget for another week that we've gifted the oppo a goal or two from the spot.
 

Sack Butcher

we need to give him time otherwise we will just lurch from one disaster to another, all the best teams in the land have given managers time
 

Sack Butcher

McBee said:
I've seen him run to the ref after every game we've played at home moaning about something.... Maybe if he worked on stopping his players fouling in the box he wouldn't need too. We all know he doesn't need the strain on his heart...

Failing that, maybe next week he can get a chant of 'The Referee's a w*anker' going from the dugout.. Get the fans on his side, and forget for another week that we've gifted the oppo a goal or two from the spot.
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Right so Scott's now to blame for us giving away three penalties in two home matches:nono:

Yeh sure a coach can tell players to stay on their feet and not make rash challenges but FFS how can he be held accountable for professional footballers making daft challenges or indeed in the case of the Stockport game the ref being conned for one of the decisions?

So what if he does have a go at Ref's we haven't exactly had much change out of them this year have we (apart from the penalty Ide won against Barnet). Try to get some sort of perspective please..............
 

Sack Butcher

I've been watching Brentford since 1958 and have never felt compelled to write anything on a website or message board until today.
But after last night's game, which was admittedly only my third this season as I live some way away, I was shocked by the stench of decay and feeling of despair and acceptance of our plight surrounding the club.
Personally I don't think sacking Terry Butcher is the answer so early in the season although I would question the appointment of a man, who by his own admission, knows nothing about the division.
The problems are startlingly obvious at the moment.

1 and the root of all our current problems... We don't have a big target man capable of holding the ball up and preventing it coming straight back at us again.
2. Ide needs to bulk out because at present he is just an impact player
2. The spine of the side is weak - Pettigrew unreliable, Thorpe a risky liability.
4. We are rudderless with a chairman who, I'm sure, would jump ship tomorrow if he could.
5. We are tactically naive - 442 is the only way to play in this division with a big man and pace up front.
6. Pretty football across the edge of the opposition box doesn't work unless you have quality players to do it. And in any case opposition players and refs in this division mitigate against it.
7. We cannot afford to taker the sting out games because the higher tempo we play at the more effective we are.
8. We have looked good in the last 20 mins of the last two games because sides have dropped off to defend on the edge of their box with a three goal cushion - nothing more.
 

Sack Butcher

Balders Bee said:
Right so Scott's now to blame for us giving away three penalties in two home matches:nono:

Yeh sure a coach can tell players to stay on their feet and not make rash challenges but FFS how can he be held accountable for professional footballers making daft challenges or indeed in the case of the Stockport game the ref being conned for one of the decisions?

So what if he does have a go at Ref's we haven't exactly had much change out of them this year have we (apart from the penalty Ide won against Barnet). Try to get some sort of perspective please..............
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What goes around comes around in this. Game i'm afraid. Yes, In the Stockport game, one of their penalties was harsh on us. But in the Barnet game, both of ours were dodgy, as Ide was looking for it, and Peters was out of the box.. So i don't think we've been paticularly hard done by.

Whereas i'm aware Scott can't physically stop people giving away pens with stupid tackles, my point was that for all the 'passion' he might show by moaning at the ref after every game, we have lost 4 or 5 goals this year from the penalty spot. This clearly hasn't been addressed..... at the moment we're giving teams 1 or 2 goal head starts each week.

Strangely, it's one of the biggest ways we're conceding goals this season, so i'd say it's not only in perspective, but why shouldn't it be pretty high on the agenda?
 

Sack Butcher

McBee said:
What goes around comes around in this. Game i'm afraid. Yes, In the Stockport game, one of their penalties was harsh on us. But in the Barnet game, both of ours were dodgy, as Ide was looking for it, and Peters was out of the box.. So i don't think we've been paticularly hard done by.

Whereas i'm aware Scott can't physically stop people giving away pens with stupid tackles, my point was that for all the 'passion' he might show by moaning at the ref after every game, we have lost 4 or 5 goals this year from the penalty spot. This clearly hasn't been addressed..... at the moment we're giving teams 1 or 2 goal head starts each week.

Strangely, it's one of the biggest ways we're conceding goals this season, so i'd say it's not only in perspective, but why shouldn't it be pretty high on the agenda?
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Fair enough but your point was directed firmly at Scott so the point remains how do you think Scott can address the players giving away stupid penalties.....once the players are on the pitch they make the decision as to stand up or make a tackle how can you say legislate for Thorpes needless challenge last night:confused: How can Scott be held accountable for Mackie an experienced centre half being mugged twice by the Stockport forward.

If we were constantly giving goals away by our off side trap being sprung or conceding from set pieces yes the coaching staff can be held accountable but penalties........no sorry don't see your point?
 

Sack Butcher

Infatuated Bees Alter Ego said:
Martin Allen managed to do it. I don't hear about Butcher, Scott or anyone else at the club doing this task, until today that is.

Look, whoever it is at the club who has been tasked with this role, is not doing a very job in my opinion. McNeil ran rings around us on Saturday. He caused us a great deal of problems and from where I was sitting, we didn't have a clue how to deal with it. We were not prepared.
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I'm not saying that we couldn't have been better prepared and aware what is likely to be on show. However I just cannot see how Butcher & Scott can be looking at other opponents playing (other than video recordings possibly) when we play on the same day. Martin Allen may have travelled alot, but I'm not convinced it was often to see our future opponents, but more likely to see potential transfer targets. He also was very good at telling a story that everyone believed. :wave:
In my mind in most games at this level you shouldn't have to worry too much about who is playing against you as long as you do the basic things right and are sharp, win a majority of 1st and 2nd balls and pass with a good tempo and deliver balls to the forwards and wide players to attack and worry the opponents, as we did in teh last 20 minutes last night. It is basic mistakes that are being made and 3 penalties given away in 2 games tells the story.
Imho it is more the way we set ourselves up to play and the players in wrong positions and some player generally not being good enough that is the problem and probably why some of the opposition look better than they actually are. That is where you can blame Butcher & Scott perhaps.
 

Sack Butcher

Sack

Butcher
Dyke
Tillien
Charles
Osborne

And send all the loanees back to the clubs. Call Peters, Karle Carder Andrews, Masters and Monty back and lets play like that. Can't get any f*****g worse can it.
 
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