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That Oldham flag

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Guildford Bee

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That Oldham flag

Listening to BBC London on the way back from the game, it seems quite a few Bees were offended by Oldham's "Born in England, Live in England, Die in England" flag.

Any thoughts.............?

:fishing: :fishing: :fishing:
 

That Oldham flag

Nice idea for a patriotic bunch of fans. I wasn't offended at all.
 

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No problems here.
 

That Oldham flag

Did strike me as having some racist overtones. Maybe because of the BNP history in Oldham. Maybe that is just being overly PC, dunno

It seemed to be taken down in the 2nd half though.

Be interested to hear how Oldham fans feel it reflects on their club. I wouldn't be that pleased if it was taken everywhere by Bees fans personally.
 

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thought it was bad taste and completely pointless, i for one have no need to proclaim my english heritage against another english side and i really doubt that flag was really patriotic.
fed up with stupid IRA chants and town full of P**** chants from a small minority close to me in the brook road WHAT IS THE POINT
 

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Didn't offend me in the slightest.
Thought it was patriotic?
Maybe the BNP use this as a slogan or something...
 

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thought it was sad, Oldham are small fry and it seemed to stoke up racist comments in the brook rd from a few idiots
 

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no problems here in fact its shows the pc society we live in that something as simple as that can cause such offence

HOWEVER....as soon as i saw it i knew it was going to cause controversy and ill-feeling from some people and so would anyone else with half a brain-cell so ive got a feeling there might have been a darker motive behind it-especially coming from oldham which has a history of racial tension.

but the message itself in my opinion is fine-if you cant celebrate being english in england then what has the world come to?
 

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brighton bee said:
...but the message itself in my opinion is fine-if you cant celebrate being english in england then what has the world come to?

That's absolutely true, but SURELY nobody who has posted in this thread REALLY thought it was an innocent statement of patriotic feeling?!
 

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LostBee said:
But you will quite happily sing sheep shaggers to the taffs.

****ing hypocrite.

dont think the welsh have had to suffer purely for their race as much as other cultures (part from the fact they are welsh) :D
anyway the idea that its patriotic- why do people feel the need to go to such lengths to prove their so called love for this country and the message they were giving was you can only live in /love this country if you were born lived and died here which simply isnt true :nono:
 

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richy said:
That's absolutely true, but SURELY nobody who has posted in this thread REALLY thought it was an innocent statement of patriotic feeling?!

Obviously it had undertones,but this is a flag at a football match,not a GCSE literature text.We don't really need to analyse it in depth and look at how certain words get across what the author is trying to show.

If that's what they want to say,then so be it
 

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richy said:
That's absolutely true, but SURELY nobody who has posted in this thread REALLY thought it was an innocent statement of patriotic feeling?!

thats my point exactly-nothing wrong with being patriotic but i doubt that was all there was too the flag
 

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I dont see the problem with it myself.

The flags been made to be taken down in the past at games

Yes, Oldham has racial tension and still to this day does.

If Colchester had turned up with a similar flag and 'Colchester United' written across the middle, would there even be a mention of it on here? :confused:

It's just like the Queens pub in Oldham. It was seen as racists by the local Asian Community.

Queens and country

Chris Coleman and his gable-end art

by Geoff Wood

Landlord Chris Coleman raises a glass to England, St George and Oldham Athletic, whose emblems have been made a permanent fixture in the exterior decor of his pub.

It seems Chris (39), licensee of The Queens, Rochdale Road, Oldham, is a man who likes to be upfront about his loyalties.

So much so, that he has painted Oldham Athletic motif and a St George’s flag on the gable end of his pub!

The images are not intended to be political or differentiate in race, he says, they are merely to show he is being proud of being British and supporting Latics.

The makeover all started because the gable end was something of an eyesore.

He said: “I decided to repaint it. I put an owl on a ball and had the letters OAFC added. Then I decided to put up a St George’s flag — 20 feet by 10 feet — which will be on permanent display.

“I am a rather patriotic person. But I am also fond of Oldham because it is my birthplace.

“The display I have got is staying. But if Latics win the play-off I may well paint a couple of Latics players’ faces on the wall as well.”

The display is proving popular with customers in the pub and also in the adjoining beer garden.

It is also a prominent site for motorists driving along Rochdale Road.

Inside, there are hundreds of items of memorabilia relating to Oldham Athletic — much to the delight of fans who enjoy a drink at The Queens before and after matches.
 
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50332-Born-in-England-Live-in-England-Die-in-England-0.jpg


Man United have one!
 

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Did they parade it down Southall Broadway or something?
No it was at a football match.
Don't pretend it offended anyone. :nono: :nono:
 

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loyalbee said:
thought it was bad taste and completely pointless, i for one have no need to proclaim my english heritage against another english side and i really doubt that flag was really patriotic.
who says they dont go and watch England home and away? :confused:
 

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LostBee said:
What have black people got to do with it?(sorry,that really should be "our coloured friends shouldn't it).Surely the racism heard was anti asian?

Unless of course you think blacks and asians are the same,but wouldn't that make you a racist idiot?

Some black people find the term coloured offensive. Too many reminders of oppression in the US and South Africa.
 

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LostBee said:
You learn something new everyday,even if it's as trivial as that.

Some black people don't find being called coloured trivial.
 

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Ok.

I've done a little back-tracking on a few posts on various sites over the years.

Here you go

Paddy said:
Sorry folks , cant be a.r.s..e.d.

But one thing I will mention is this:

As a few of you know, one of my mates has a flag that reads "Born In England, Live In England, Die In England".

This flag has been allowed to be put up at Stockport/Torquay, and Hartlepool, BUT Essex Police seem to deem it racist.

At Thurrock in the cup, my mate was told to take it down because Essex police said it was racist and could cause offence to BBC viewers, my mate, quite stupidly, argued and was ejected from the ground.

Today...., same police force, my mate spent 10 mins or so putting the flag up (with permission from stewards). About 10 minutes into the game, a police officer known to our group of mates well, came over to us and told us to take it down as Essex Police deem it racist. The Oldham Police Officer (PC Devine) told us that he didnt feel it was racist but was told by The Essex police to get him to take it down or 3 of us (The Lad who owns the flag, me and another mate) would not only be ejected from the ground, but also arrested.
Paddy was around 16 at the time.
 

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I've got a guy who works for me who's an Asian South African. He'll happily spend some time explaining all the "Coloured Only" rules that his family had to abide by when he was growing up which is why it's quite a big thing for him not to be called coloured. He much prefers to be called South African.
 

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LostBee said:
No thanks,if i wanted to be bored to death i'd watch Bolton at the weekends.

Yeah you're right. Education in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing.
 

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LostBee said:
We all know what happened in South Africa,and it was terrible no question,but what's it got to do with the Oldham flag?

Your just trying to pick a fight,so stop.

I didn't mention coloured. Anyway, you know now.
 

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loyalbee said:
who says they do
They do! The flags been spotted at England games before now.

No ones answered my question, that if colchester came with the flag. It wouldnt have even got mentioned.
 

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lost bee - why are you so offended that people find this flag and some chanting to be rascist and not quite appropriate
 

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This flag affected me very much because its racist to me in my opion because its saying people from other countries cant live in england!
 

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Canadian Bee said:
This flag affected me very much because its racist to me in my opion because its saying people from other countries cant live in england!
Prendy said:
Thats my mates flag and I know that in the past police have made it been taken down because its racist. How its racist i will never know.

But thats England, so politically correct i cant say my sh1ts brown
Prendy was also in the local rag not so long back. He had a tiny St Georges sticker on his car number plate, and was told to take it off because it was 'racists'.

P.C - even more so in Oldham. First sign of you having anything England related and you've had it.

Suprised i've not been told to take off my tiny St Georges/O.A.F.C pin badge before now. :rolleyes: Oh wait, I did at Leeds away

Alot of people say what does Oldham have to do with England? You only have to take a trip to our club shop to see what it does. Half the merchandise in there we stock has oldham/england products. Be it T-shirts, badges, shirts, jumpers everything.
 

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Canadian Bee said:
This flag affected me very much because its racist to me in my opion because its saying people from other countries cant live in england!

:confused:

People are very tippy-toey around 'racism'. What is racism? Stating that there is only about 5 black people in my school? That there are more people of an Asian origin in Wembley? I don't find either remotely racist, yet some people, mainly white people, will call it racist. I have chosen Wembley as an example, as there are ethnic minority groups set up for Asians and Afro-Caribbean (sp?) origins, but there isn't one for White/Causican(sp?) origin. Why? Because if one was set up, there would be a huge outrage, the media would have a field day, and the person or people who set it up would be called racist. Why though? Because it's a fact that White people are an ethnic minority in Wembley? It's true, yet if touched, it would be called racism, simply because it's white people.
Anyway, what I'm saying isn't really going anywhere, so I just want re-iterate that a lot of people are far too touchy about racism, and it is detiorating, as nobody is brave enough to step up and tell people to pull their act together, as that person will be called a racist.
 
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hanworthbee said:
you started on me by intimating that i was a hypocrite which I am not, I go to football to support our team, not to have a go at other ethnic groups or fellow fans and my personal opinion is that I would not like to be associated with a club that carries that flag, Oldham may have a large asian population but surprisingly so does Hounslow the borough of our team but we do not sink to that level....well 99.9% of us dont.
How is that sinking to that level by having a flag?

Yes we do have a racists following. There's no doubting that. Just look at the stoke game a few years back and the documentary on some of our fans.

What do you expect in a town like Oldham though. Tensions unbearable at times.

I'm sure brentford have more than a few right wing fans.

I'd much rather have our fans displaying a flag than chanting racists abuse like the majority of clubs we travel too. OAFC Have worked tirelessly to stamp out racist chanting from our fans and have done just that. We had it a few years ago when we played away all the time. Thanks to CCTV and other fans though, they've all since been banned.
 

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Rocky_Latic said:
How is that sinking to that level by having a flag?

Yes we do have a racists following. There's no doubting that. Just look at the stoke game a few years back and the documentary on some of our fans.

What do you expect in a town like Oldham though. Tensions unbearable at times.

I'm sure brentford have more than a few right wing fans.

I'd much rather have our fans displaying a flag than chanting racists abuse like the majority of clubs we travel too. OAFC Have worked tirelessly to stamp out racist chanting from our fans and have done just that. We had it a few years ago when we played away all the time. Thanks to CCTV and other fans though, they've all since been banned.

The last time I heard racist chants was quite last season, against Luton I think. Does it not say something, if every club you travel to, bearing that flag, sings racist chants in response to it? Maybe you arn't doing all you think you are.
 

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hanworthbee said:
well you said in one of your above posts that your club shop sells lots of Oldham/england stuff..why? ok you may have tensions there i dont know never been but english football doesnt need things like this..in my opinion i hasten to add.
because it sells. Call it being a bit Patriotic or Racist.
ENGLIONT_B_1.jpg


each to their own. I think it's a sad day when you cant have something related to your club as well as your country.

Of course football doesnt need Racism, thats why theres a kick racism out of football day.

Asians in Oldham dont take to the football club. Never have, never will. The club has tried to attract the asian community but it's always fell on it's arse.

In my view, that what the club was doing was racism itself.

I'd much rather we let kids of all races in free and fill the bigger section of the away stand with 3,000, and give the away fans the smaller section.
 

That Oldham flag

I have no problem with fans displaying the flag as we live in a free society, but I think the owners of the flag would be telling porkies if it they say it wasn`t aimed at the asians who follow the muslim faith and who still have a link to their parents homeland in Pakistan.

I personally am content with just "Brentford FC" on my St Georges flag.

But I won`t dream of stopping them from displaying it.
 

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Ronan_UK said:
The last time I heard racist chants was quite last season, against Luton I think. Does it not say something, if every club you travel to, bearing that flag, sings racist chants in response to it? Maybe you arn't doing all you think you are.
we get racists chants, whether the flag is there or not.

Hull was probably the worst we've suffered. That was in the cup about 3/4 years back.

The chants are prevoked because of the racial history of oldham, not because of one flag
 

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Rocky_Latic said:
we get racists chants, whether the flag is there or not.

Hull was probably the worst we've suffered. That was in the cup about 3/4 years back.

The chants are prevoked because of the racial history of oldham, not because of one flag

Hear about what happened with Hull fans to QPR too? Mind you, last season, I had a chat with a few of their fans, lovely people. It's a shame some mindless dickheads spoil it and taint a club's record.
 

That Oldham flag

We all know that there is racial tension in Oldham and in other parts of the country. Some of it relates to genuine racism from both whites and Asians and this is why there is the tension. It works both ways.
As a result, some white English people wish to re-affirm their Englishness in a similar way to the way that some Asian people wish to re-affirm their heritage.
As this is a country where there is supposed to be freedom of speech, so what if people wish to have a flag that says what it says. If they then go round finding the nearest non-white and start putting the boot in, then these people are idiots and action would need to be taken.

The overtly PC attitude that is taken up in this country, in my opinion, will cause more damage in the long-run, as it harbours feelings of resentment, and the PC attitude, in my opinion, has led to examples of reverse discrimination which perpetuates the resentment. Outright racism is, thankfully, still on the decrease and outright racists are often caricatured in a manner that makes light of their opinion. However, the same is happening, if not increasingly so, to the PC attitude, and their overtly PC attitude is rapidly being caricatured (see League of Gentlemen, Little Britain) and it may only be a matter of time before extremism comes back into fashion. If the British economy does sink into depression, then extremism may well be on the increase and we could see a return to the archaic attitudes that the absolute majority want to avoid.

The good aspect about this country is that you can say things like "I'm proud to be English/British" but this is rapidly becoming a bit of a swear word these days. I find this incredibly sad. As a British person who has Korean roots, I know a very large number of people who are patriotic and are openly so. This says, in my experience, nothing about their attitudes towards other races, or I would not be friends with them. I have been accused of pandering to the far-right attitude, but that's simply not true. I feel strongly about it, which is why I comment on it. I feel I have a fair attitude towards racism, and I understand that human nature dictates that we are nationalistic (to an extent). We are all fundamentally tribal, hence our affinity for being associated with Brentford Football Club. We are are proud to come from West London. We are proud to be Londoners. We are proud to be southerners. We are proud to be English. We are proud to be British. We are proud to be European. And so on. It just depends on the situation.
 

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maybe they'd have had a bigger away support if they'd allowed non-English in :fishing:

it was a pointless flag really, so i assume it could have been a racist thing, but i didn't spend much time thinking of it really.....

as long as you buy your round, i don't care what you are, but if you're a tight bastard....
 

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Pete_the_Bee said:
All this over that sh*tty flag.

It's saturday night for Christ's sake, have a drink, make yourself a sarnie and settle down to watch Match of the Day.

Take it easy lads, save the anger for the trip up north in the cup.

I'm finding this thread superb entertainment :sorted:
 

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Leicester Bee said:
We all know that there is racial tension in Oldham and in other parts of the country. Some of it relates to genuine racism from both whites and Asians and this is why there is the tension. It works both ways.
As a result, some white English people wish to re-affirm their Englishness in a similar way to the way that some Asian people wish to re-affirm their heritage.
As this is a country where there is supposed to be freedom of speech, so what if people wish to have a flag that says what it says. If they then go round finding the nearest non-white and start putting the boot in, then these people are idiots and action would need to be taken.

The overtly PC attitude that is taken up in this country, in my opinion, will cause more damage in the long-run, as it harbours feelings of resentment, and the PC attitude, in my opinion, has led to examples of reverse discrimination which perpetuates the resentment. Outright racism is, thankfully, still on the decrease and outright racists are often caricatured in a manner that makes light of their opinion. However, the same is happening, if not increasingly so, to the PC attitude, and their overtly PC attitude is rapidly being caricatured (see League of Gentlemen, Little Britain) and it may only be a matter of time before extremism comes back into fashion. If the British economy does sink into depression, then extremism may well be on the increase and we could see a return to the archaic attitudes that the absolute majority want to avoid.

The good aspect about this country is that you can say things like "I'm proud to be English/British" but this is rapidly becoming a bit of a swear word these days. I find this incredibly sad. As a British person who has Korean roots, I know a very large number of people who are patriotic and are openly so. This says, in my experience, nothing about their attitudes towards other races, or I would not be friends with them. I have been accused of pandering to the far-right attitude, but that's simply not true. I feel strongly about it, which is why I comment on it. I feel I have a fair attitude towards racism, and I understand that human nature dictates that we are nationalistic (to an extent). We are all fundamentally tribal, hence our affinity for being associated with Brentford Football Club. We are are proud to come from West London. We are proud to be Londoners. We are proud to be southerners. We are proud to be English. We are proud to be British. We are proud to be European. And so on. It just depends on the situation.


Underlyes what I tried to say, and when it's televised well, such as the case in Little Britain, people have a laugh about it, because they know it's true! But when it comes to real life, the media, and the government are so sqeamish(sp?) about it, that everything is built up between people's views, without any racism being said, and it passes through generations. Is there any way to view how many people vote for BNP/WINP (I think the white independant party or something) has fluctuated over the years?
 

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Bet this thread gets locked when the :computer: boys arrive :(
 

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LostBee, HanworthBee, Loyal Bee. You might like some advice.
 

That Oldham flag

I can't believe the naivety that some of you are displaying.
The slogans on the Oldham flag are covertly expressing racism by mischievously making irrelevant,'patriotic' statements.
If they were to show an overtly racist message,such as 'proud not be to be Asian',they would be bang to rights.Therefore,they express an apparently innocuous and positive sentiment, and challenge the rest of us to a semantic argument.
Finally,to dismiss objections to covert racism as being PC,is a corruption of that expression,and furthermore,shows that you have learned nothing from the history of the effects of racist propaganda.
 

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oldgreenfordian said:
I can't believe the naivety that some of you are displaying.
The slogans on the Oldham flag are covertly expressing racism by mischievously making irrelevant,'patriotic' statements.
If they were to show an overtly racist message,such as 'proud not be to be Asian',they would be bang to rights.Therefore,they express an apparently innocuous and positive sentiment, and challenge the rest of us to a semantic argument.
Finally,to dismiss objections to covert racism as being PC,is a corruption of that expression,and furthermore,shows that you have learned nothing from the history of the effects of racist propaganda.

Nah mate. It's always "political correctness gone mad". ;)
 

That Oldham flag

oldgreenfordian said:
I can't believe the naivety that some of you are displaying.
The slogans on the Oldham flag are covertly expressing racism by mischievously making irrelevant,'patriotic' statements.
If they were to show an overtly racist message,such as 'proud not be to be Asian',they would be bang to rights.Therefore,they express an apparently innocuous and positive sentiment, and challenge the rest of us to a semantic argument.
Finally,to dismiss objections to covert racism as being PC,is a corruption of that expression,and furthermore,shows that you have learned nothing from the history of the effects of racist propaganda.

:scratch:
 

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LostBee said:
Now THAT'S funny lol

Take note hanworthbee.

Didn't work though, did it? Still bickering.
 

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LostBee is leading 39 to Hanworth Bee's 20 at the moment...

Are we going to see a late surge from Hanworth???

Oh the excitement.....and I thought my evening wouldn't get any better after Strictly Come Dancing
 

That Oldham flag

oldgreenfordian said:
I can't believe the naivety that some of you are displaying.
The slogans on the Oldham flag are covertly expressing racism by mischievously making irrelevant,'patriotic' statements.
If they were to show an overtly racist message,such as 'proud not be to be Asian',they would be bang to rights.Therefore,they express an apparently innocuous and positive sentiment, and challenge the rest of us to a semantic argument.
Finally,to dismiss objections to covert racism as being PC,is a corruption of that expression,and furthermore,shows that you have learned nothing from the history of the effects of racist propaganda.


what is covert racism. shall i take my avatar down :shrug:

if everyone ignored it (if it was racist) then it wouldn't have an effect, but if we want to have a thread that lasts 5 pages +, then it's done its job.....
 
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