rebus
On my final warning
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
You know exactly why it’s changing. You’ve been told several times. Your place in the queue is completely unaffected next season given your excellent attendance over the last few seasons.
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
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horshambees
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Not missing the point,but stating one as it happens.
If by your admission that i will not lose out then leave it be because imo it is fair and rewarding as it is.
There could be more to this in the long run,but we will wait and see.
horshambees
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Yes,but it does not mean i have to agree with it or think it is a great idea and lets be honest in saying that anyone who wants tickets will get one save for Muff on Saturday.
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
May as well cancel TAPs altogether in that case. Waste of time.
horshambees
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
My 10 year old will do around 32 games this season, more or less every game apart from those we couldn’t get a ticket or northern/ midlands away school night games. Last few seasons around 25-28 games on average. I reckon it will take 7-8 years for him to be able to get a Bournemouth ticket under the current system. That’s why the system needs updating. I await the details but I expect and hope that no one regularly attending away games will be worse off.
AB
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
The only people who will be worse off are those who may have gone to lots of games before 2021 but not bought tickets for very many or any away games since then. If they’re a STH they’ll still be quite high up the list to buy away tickets but lower than they used to be because they’ll fall behind STHs of any vintage who have gone to more away games in the PL. But as the point of TAPs was to prioritise the most regular home and away supporters in allocating high demand away tickets what exactly is being lost beyond an option they have shown themselves disinclined to exercise despite the supposed allure of going to Anfield or wherever.
Do we need some badge evidencing loyalty that establishes you as a long term fan but has no other practical impact? Would you wear one if it existed? Would your order of registration on GPG do the trick? Or just being able to say you’re not bothered about Liverpool away now because you ticked that one off in 1989?
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
I might be reading this incorrectly or simply taking it the wrong way, and apologies in advance if that's the case, but that last line seems to be extraordinarily dismissive of part of our supporter base. It seems to read that, as far as this TAPs cutoff goes, you're regarded as a supporter who either go to all away games, or you're one who can't be arsed to go to any but still want Fulham away tickets.
The concern that several posters were raising earlier in the thread - but we were summarily swatted aside by those ITK about next week's announcement - was that a temporary dip in attendance over the last few years for unavoidable reasons*, despite significant away attendance in the many seasons immediately prior to the TAPs cutoff (not going to a specific game three decades prior as one equated it to...) was going to see us disproportionately impacted by this decision.
Unless I'm reading it wrong you've now confirmed this, given you're now saying this "will" be happening? I still have hope that the club aren't taking such a black and white approach to more complex supporter concern.
* I'm aware others may regarding having kids as an avoidable reason, but in my defence I was still inclined to exercise the option of the allure of Anfield in our first season up despite the very real threat of missing my daughters first baby scan the next day. If this whole process is about attracting the next generation of supporters, I feel actually creating those generations is unavoidable...
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
How about you just wait for the announcement?
How can you have a concern about an announcement that you haven't read?
Also, and I will say this plainly, you're distain for me and others that are helping you and everyone else on this matter is just outrageous. You haven't even read the proposal yet and you are suggesting that those supporters that give up their time and energy for the likes of you are beneath contempt. No, it is you that is beneath contempt. You have never ever given a single minute to your fellow supporters. You just want to criticise them.
I said above that the representatives of BIAS, BU and others have done a fantastic job here. That being based on the hours and hours that they and me have sunk into this matter.
If you have anything useful to say on the matter then I suggest that you wait for the comms from the clubs before you decide we, those charged with helping you, are all ****s. Posts like yours really irk me. You have no right to suggest that your fellow fans, that have your interests at their very heart, are somehow the enemy
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Five-year rolling TAPs model??
AB just posted about what WILL be happening to a specifc section of our fan base. I gather, based on his posts in this thread, that he knows what's coming. It seems logical to comment on his post if you're likely to be in that group no?
The club seem to be becoming increasingly unbothered about its supporters over the last few years, so I wouldn't hold out much hope that they'd listen to any concerns after their decision is announced. Therefore, I don't think raising concerns about what we're reading from credible sources such as AB is daft.
But fine, I'll leave it at that.
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
I don't think I've said that in the slightest, and I'm extremely grateful of the efforts that are being put in on my behalf. I don't think I've called anyone out on this issue, instead I was keen for different scenarios around away attendance to be considered.
I must admit I took exception to that one line at the foot of AB's post, but like I said I may have been reading it incorrectly.
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
See this: " we were summarily swatted aside by those ITK "
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Fair enough, and I'll gladly retract it then. It certainly wasn't aimed at AB or others involved, but was referencing this
Which seemed to make light of a genuine concern I raised surrounding the cutoff potentially being made immediately after significant away attendance.
AB
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
My apologies if I was overly flippant. In an ideal world we’d not be discussing this in the abstract after an anonymous post rummaging around the BFC website but after an actual announcement.
I think if you just lightened your attendance that one season for the lovely reason of impending fatherhood and came back the next you should be relatively unaffected by the change and you definitely will be entirely unaffected from 26-27.
Whereas if you’d missed most of say 18-19 for the same reason, under the current system you would not be able to make up the shortfall however many games you attended in subsequent seasons other than by the inevitable attrition of Bees fans who each year cease to be able to go at all.
It’s worth waiting for the precise personal detail of where in the order of TAPs you now will be compared to before and only the club has that for each fan. I understand the large majority will not see a drop in the sales window they will be in. Almost all of those who may drop by more than one window have been to few or no away games in 4 years. But very few of those will in practice be affected because by not going to or wanting to go to away games over a long period when away matches are more popular than in many decades they don’t have any need for their TAPs at all. And where a shortfall has been due to exceptional circumstance there will be a process to allow for that to be taken into account.
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
What? What concern? You haven't even seen the proposals yet to even raise a concern.
Edmundo
Whinging pom
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Only if we draw them in a cup match, because we’re in the Premier League!!I take on board everything you say and here is a question.
If Muffwere in the Championship or Leagues 1 or 2 would we be having this conversation ?
rebus
On my final warning
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Fans are allowed to have concerns prior about something that will potentially affect their matchday attendance. That is natural and shouldn’t be dismissed by saying “wait for the statement”. Although hopefully those concerns will be allayed by the club comms.
The poster who initiated this thread clearly has an agenda but what it has done is tighten up the club’s comms around it for this week to an acceptable level. As prior, they definitely were not.
Having something taken away from you, and this is happening to pretty much all of us on this board, and from your favourite football club, is clearly an emotive issue. All posters on this thread should recognise that. This is why I hate the yellow card terminology. It never takes into account what the recipient might feel when that phrase is dished out.
The poster who initiated this thread clearly has an agenda but what it has done is tighten up the club’s comms around it for this week to an acceptable level. As prior, they definitely were not.
Having something taken away from you, and this is happening to pretty much all of us on this board, and from your favourite football club, is clearly an emotive issue. All posters on this thread should recognise that. This is why I hate the yellow card terminology. It never takes into account what the recipient might feel when that phrase is dished out.
horshambees
Well-known member
cheshirebee
the one without a space
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
The poster never used language remotely like ‘beneath contempt’.
Calm down.
wanderer paul
https://brentfordfcmemorabilia.wordpress.com/
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
AB would know, as he’s now the Chairman of BIAS. (Taken over from hobbsy)
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
I know it’s hard to believe, but I was just at work, bored, checking the club website when I came across the minutes. Normally, I would have just waited for official information, but when I saw that it had been five months since the meeting, I panicked a bit, thinking I had missed the announcement. I searched for it on GPG, found nothing, and decided to register to ask about it. I’ve been reading posts here for years but never felt I had anything worth contributing.
Since then, I’ve genuinely felt bad about it, especially as shortly after it was confirmed that the official communications were coming that week. I’m sorry for causing anxiety among fans regarding the changes. While I’d like to think (as you suggest) that I might have helped, even slightly, to improve how things end up being communicated, if I could go back in time, I wouldn’t have posted it.
I understand why it might seem like I had inside knowledge and was trying to stir up discussion, but the reality is much simpler than that.
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
The simplest way to do it would just be to remove a percentage of everyone's TAPs at the end of the season each season. No ones order in the queue would change but it would mean that the gap to people on lower TAPs would close.
If you removed 10%, for example, someone on 5k TAPs would end up on 4.5k and someone on 4k would end up on 3.6k closing the gap by 100.
If you removed 10%, for example, someone on 5k TAPs would end up on 4.5k and someone on 4k would end up on 3.6k closing the gap by 100.
Hakonen_72
Member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
I have attended some 60 % of all of my Brentford matches during the last five years (even though I'm missing two years due to the coronavirus and the travel rules it caused). Some 65 % of my TAPS, however, are gained before PL times. Don't remember exactly but there were at least once I gained lots of extra TAPs for buying a membership before some deadline. As long as I can renew my ST does not really matter. Two away matches during the last 10 years anyway...
horshambees
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Do not under any circumstances regret your decision to start this thread.
475 posts have replied and many questions have been asked and answered.
Some may like the replies and some may not,but as Rebus posted earlier TAPs are an emotive subject and we cherish them so much that if we do not get them then we chase after them and people have dipped out on tickets because they were shy of a point or two.
Personally i would say well done for starting it and make sure you become a regular contributor.
marvelous007
Active member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Thank you, it's a pending/draft proposal (which then usually follows consultation). Rather than a decision already made.
Thank you for the clarification.
hobbsy
Optimist
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Removing the bonus TAPs awarded just because lots of us bought something at a point in time will be the biggest boost for equity amongst our fanbase from the proposal.
AB
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Things like this were considered but not pursued because they were more technically complex and had no to neglible actual beneficial distributional impact. Discounting this way would mean a high attending more recent fan would drop back relative to a long standing fan with low recent attendance (eg fan A who doesn’t go to any away PL games but has 7k goes to 6300, fan B who has gone to many and has 3k drops a tier by being reduced to 2700, the following year fan A could go to no home or away games and still be on over 5500 while fan B would need to go to every home game and a bunch of aways not to drop another ticketing window).
Jay Bee
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
This is what is being referred to as the "Kurt bonuses". 500 extra TAPs for renewing your season ticket by the early bird deadline. This happened maybe twice. was there something similar for members? Or were you a STH at the time.
Somebody said that removing points generally discriminates against those that struggle to afford tickets at this point in time. Nothing much about going to watch PL football is particularly helpful to anyone in that position, policy wise, unfortunately. But you could argue the most equitable thing to do from that point of view would be to remove the seasons where those bonuses had an impact, because anyone struggling to afford their ticket at the time got no such benefit.
I'm surprised you had so many from 2013 to 2020 if there weren't that many games, unless you mean you had a season ticket but could rarely attend. I had 4700 TAPs in early 2020 and now have 8300 so my TAPs percentage "now" and "then" is similar to your 65%, but my attendance has been steady throughout, though more away games in the PL (was 50% now 80% of away attended). Maybe it was the bonuses.
In 2013-14 TAPs were a block given to every STH regardless of attendance, which got all STHs off to a head start. Match by match TAPs were only awarded to STHs in subsequent seasons.
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AB
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
I think even if simply removing the Kurt bonuses were to be a better idea another legacy of that era is the quality of the data. So I’m not sure the club now knows or could find out without manually checking the records of every single pre-2021 fan with a fan number if they received Kurt points and for what. If STs got a block of TAPs then rather than match by match there would almost certainly and reasonably be calls from those affected to have those Kurt points converted to the then applicable matchday TAPs (to the extent there is a record of what the club gave for each game then and whether the ST attended, which I believe is “that data exists barely if at all”) rather than wiped completely. And none of this would be of any benefit to the vast majority of fans old and new.
Jay Bee
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Yes and I'm not suggesting the bonuses alone should be removed, because as we've heard after others asked the data does not make this clear.
Playing devil's advocate - as these were large amounts a long time ago, it is one differentiator that will disappear in future if those whole seasons disappear.
Hakonen_72
Member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
I bought a membership 2015-2023, last season was my first as STH. There was some bonus at least one time, do not remember exactly.
Before Covid I had 1130 TAPs and now I have 1735.
BEEcool
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Five-year rolling TAPs model??
So not a proposal then but a statement of the changes that have been agreed?
hobbsy
Optimist
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Well the European Super League was a statement too. So nothing is ever final, but as final as it can be.
jlove
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
The first post highlights the review of the proposal, so one can only assume now the information release will be the result of that review.
Isleworth_Bee
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Will be interesting to see how this pans out.
I dont do as many away games as i used to. (children, finances etc).
I get the whole bit about making it easier for fans who do loads of away games getting tickets and ensuring that the younger fans have an opportunity to get tickets, and ensuring our away support isnt an "old" closed shop.
I guess its been done to death on here, and its best to await the club announcement. But i do think that historic support should count for something moving forward, especially as some who did hard yards over the years may not be able to get to as many games further down the line. However i suppose if they dont do many away games then it shouldnt be a problem.
Im sort of with @8corner though. Other then making it easier for fans buying in the same window, i dont really see it as a massive issue as we dont exactly sell out that many games. And there is only a issue for the likes of Luton and BMuff.
Even Fulham isnt a bun fight for tickets.
Just my opinion.
I dont do as many away games as i used to. (children, finances etc).
I get the whole bit about making it easier for fans who do loads of away games getting tickets and ensuring that the younger fans have an opportunity to get tickets, and ensuring our away support isnt an "old" closed shop.
I guess its been done to death on here, and its best to await the club announcement. But i do think that historic support should count for something moving forward, especially as some who did hard yards over the years may not be able to get to as many games further down the line. However i suppose if they dont do many away games then it shouldnt be a problem.
Im sort of with @8corner though. Other then making it easier for fans buying in the same window, i dont really see it as a massive issue as we dont exactly sell out that many games. And there is only a issue for the likes of Luton and BMuff.
Even Fulham isnt a bun fight for tickets.
Just my opinion.
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
You had every right to post it. Don't worry. No-one is worried
The club have also been able to read this thread so can see the "interest" this subject causes.
Not long to go now in any case.
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BEEcool
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Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Was increasing TAPs awarded for future matches considered? Wouldn’t something like quadrupling (or a suitable multiple based on the data) points awarded for aways allow for new/younger fans that are regularly attending matches to catch up and overtake those with big TAPs that no longer go? It’d dilute the TAPs accrued over the past 10+ years rather than discount them completely.
horshambees
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
I did a quick count from memory for Premier league/Cup/friendlies home TAPs for 4 seasons or 21/22 to 2024/25.
About 1270.
Afaik we did not get any for Play off Muff and Swansea at Wembley or did we ?
About 1270.
Afaik we did not get any for Play off Muff and Swansea at Wembley or did we ?
Jay Bee
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
I'm sure it was noted at the time there were no TAPs awarded at all in 20/21, for the two league and two play off ganes with bees fans attending
Jay Bee
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
4000 is loads ?
at least 5 years of home and away support, probably 6-8 years.Yes some fans at that level got tickets, many had to put up with restricted view or single seats I am sure.
Nobody who a got their first TAPs at the Gtech got anywhere near this one, just in case some were worried.
horshambees
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
There's c 1k available per season.4000 is loads ?
Yes some fans at that level got tickets, many had to put up with restricted view or single seats I am sure.
Nobody who a got their first TAPs at the Gtech got anywhere near this one, just in case some were worried.
Guildford Bee
Well-known member
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
I’m in the same boat. A large proportion of my TAPs were acquired over 10 years ago before I had kids.
Do I need them now? Not really, since I don’t do as many away games as I did then and as you say most away games make it on sale to all ST holders anyway.
Do I think those trips to Oldham, Preston, Mboro etc should still count for something? Absolutely.
Five-year rolling TAPs model??
Every PL home and away would be 770. But school kids can’t do every game.
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