Five-year rolling TAPs model??

[RAF_Patto]

So when we win the champions league and you then get your taps cut to let in the next new wave, you’ll be happy?

Ultimately, if I am still going, then I should be absolutely fine. So yes, I'd be quite happy with the system being proposed (even when we win the Champions League).

 

[RAF_Patto]

Some interesting points on this thread. Although, I do not recall any of our supporters clubs seeking supporters individual views on this subject either or have I missed something?

Are you a member of Bees United or BIAS? As I believe they've been involved with this (happy to be corrected), so they're essentially the fans voice.

 

[marvelous007]

20000 “bees” at each of those

I was referring to Trotters penalty miss at home to Doncaster.

Re: Yeovil Town, it was around 23,000 tickets sold at Wembley?

Comparing Apples and Pears.

Think if we got to a final
again against Man Utd or any big sixclub, demand would bee through the roof. It's totally different ball game in PL.

 

[marvelous007]

Are you a member of Bees United or BIAS? As I believe they've been involved with this (happy to be corrected), so they're essentially the fans voice.

IYes, and I have not seen any comms or surveys seeking the individual views of their members was my point. Or did I miss something?

 

[8corner]

Lots of posts from various people talking about TAPs being a badge of lower league loyalty.

TAPs started in 2013.
The 50 years in the lower divisions, 49 of them earned nothing towards anyone's TAPs total.
Even the one that did count was the most points we've ever earnt in a league season, hardly a season of woe.
The Kurt bonuses were for season tickets in the Championship.

I understand people's wish to have some recognition for "all those years in the lower leagues" but that ship sailed before anyone even thought we needed a loyalty scheme.

Thanks Jay. My foggy (pretty useless) memory thought it was much earlier and in part a response to Southampton FA Cup

 

[hobbsy]

IYes, and I have not seen any comms or surveys seeking the individual views of their members was my point. Or did I miss something?

We sent out a survey specifically on TAPs a couple of years ago. Maybe three.

 

[AB]

IYes, and I have not seen any comms or surveys seeking the individual views of their members was my point. Or did I miss something?

This is fair up to a point. I don’t think BIAS put out a member survey last year but did around the end of last year.

It was a big task collating the responses and we will be discussing those at our monthly committee meeting next week.

If someone would like to volunteer to set up, send out and collate the responses to more regular and focused questionnaires I’m sure we’d appreciate it and would certainly act on the feedback. But there is a limit to how much realistically can be done by a team of volunteers who already devote substantial amounts of time to the various workstreams with the club. Just in January there have been about 10 hours of meetings with the club regarding ticketing issues plus a lot of background reading of the sorts of data some have asked for.

At the level of detail to review opinion across everything, I think it would probably be unrealistic and also may not get that many considered and representative responses. This thread has been brilliant for that but has had a few tens of people posting their views (mods will know how many reading- I’d guess probably not higher than a couple of thousand, well short of our attendances or the 30k STs and Members).

There is also an extent to which we cannot and should not be doing the work of the club’s paid employees. The club does send out more regular questionnaires and does record opinion and how that has changed in response to its actions. We push for them to use that data to inform their thinking and to share that data with us during our consultations on proposals.

 

[Jago16]

Y

And I completely understand that point, however that "became interested" line will always shift, so it's only fair that our loyalty programme also shifts with it.

They'll be people in years to come who only became interested when we entered the top 8/6/4, challenged for the title or after our first Champions League win (delete as appropriate).

Yep true and we shouldn’t be a closed shop to new fans who go to loads of games.

 

[Banana]

This is fair up to a point. I don’t think BIAS put out a member survey last year but did around the end of last year.

It was a big task collating the responses and we will be discussing those at our monthly committee meeting next week.

If someone would like to volunteer to set up, send out and collate the responses to more regular and focused questionnaires I’m sure we’d appreciate it and would certainly act on the feedback. But there is a limit to how much realistically can be done by a team of volunteers who already devote substantial amounts of time to the various workstreams with the club. Just in January there have been about 10 hours of meetings with the club regarding ticketing issues plus a lot of background reading of the sorts of data some have asked for.

At the level of detail to review opinion across everything, I think it would probably be unrealistic and also may not get that many considered and representative responses. This thread has been brilliant for that but has had a few tens of people posting their views (mods will know how many reading- I’d guess probably not higher than a couple of thousand, well short of our attendances or the 30k STs and Members).

There is also an extent to which we cannot and should not be doing the work of the club’s paid employees. The club does send out more regular questionnaires and does record opinion and how that has changed in response to its actions. We push for them to use that data to inform their thinking and to share that data with us during our consultations on proposals.

I can attest to the amount of time and attention to detail the fan groups are committing on our behalf to this important matter

if you have time to want to be consulted individually then you are making a great case for you joining the committee/board of BIAS/BU where you can help all other fans rather than just yourself

Personally, I have been super impressed with them on this and there’s no doubting that they know how critical it is for us fans that the club gets this right

 

[VML87]

All those mornings wasted queuing outside Braemar Road waiting for the ticket office to open…

 

[twickersbee]

I think this sums it up perfectly.
I hope we don’t ever get relegated and the premier league fans depart. It would certainly appear that loyalty is a one way street from us to the club but surely it should be from the clubs to the fans as well.

 

[cheshirebee]

Been thinking about all sides of this debate and can accept that maybe something needs to change.
Yes, it probably makes sense that at some point we have to move to a rolling TAPs model. 5 years seems reasonable in the future if we have, say 8 or 9 years in the prem. Right now it risks disproportionately rewarding fans who have started or increased their match attendance since we got to the prem and disproportionately ‘penalising’ those who have spread their support +- equally whether we’ve been champ or prem. As others have suggested, maybe a mechanism where pre-2021 TAPs count for some percentage of their initial value (maybe exclude the ‘Kurt bonus’). Simply deleting them feels like that support in more difficult times is simply forgotten and erased.
Hope something like this has been considered.

 

[Banana]

I think this sums it up perfectly.
I hope we don’t ever get relegated and the premier league fans depart. It would certainly appear that loyalty is a one way street from us to the club but surely it should be from the clubs to the fans as well.

Have you read the comms yet? Or are the club sh*tting on you already nevertheless?

 

[Banana]

maybe a mechanism where pre-2021 TAPs count for some percentage of their initial value (maybe exclude the ‘Kurt bonus’)

How are you going to do that? Ask Kurt who got the bonuses?

 

[cheshirebee]

How are you going to do that? Ask Kurt who got the bonuses?

I’m not going to.
Presumably the club have that info and can apply it to any calculation they choose to make.

 

[horshambees]

Thanks Jay. My foggy (pretty useless) memory thought it was much earlier and in part a response to Southampton FA Cup

Chelsea in the FA cup ?

 

[twickersbee]

Have you read the comms yet? Or are the club sh*tting on you already nevertheless?

Fair play. I will wait for the comms to come out

 

[Banana]

I’m not going to.
Presumably the club have that info and can apply it to any calculation they choose to make.

No they don’t. Read above re quality of data pre 5 years ago

 

[cheshirebee]

No they don’t. Read above re quality of data pre 5 years ago

So they know how many TAPs everyone has, but not what they got them for ?
In that case, don‘t exclude the Kurt bonus, and discount all the pre-2021 TAPs

 

[SH]

This is the weirdest thread.
1) People getting bent out of shape about something that hasn’t happened. And/or
2) People getting bent out of shape about a five year rolling model.
If you’ve got lots of TAPS and it’s a five year rolling model, you’re not suddenly going to be disenfranchised in one or two years. If you’ve don’t go to games for three or four years then of course, relative to fans who do, you deserve to slip down the pecking order.
I’ve been going since dinosaurs roamed the earth, but if I choose not to go to as many aways as in years gone by then someone else will deserve their chance… or am I missing something?

(And I’ve always believed that a small % of tickets should be held back for young fans (under 23?) building their TAPS)

 

[marvelous007]

We sent out a survey specifically on TAPs a couple of years ago. Maybe three.

Couple of years ago!.

Hmm.

 

[Wise old Bee]

All those mornings wasted queuing outside Braemar Road waiting for the ticket office to open…

The queue for Liverpool tickets is still wistfully recollected. Down Braemar Road, into the forecourt, along the side of the pitch, then - back out into Braemar Road again. How we laughed. I was in the queue behind Slatts who wasn't at all happy. Nobody had heard of TAPs in those days.

 

[badgerbee]

Not to those of us who have 3-4000 more than anyone else . Means a lot to us .

Nick, we know, and totally respect and salute how loyal you, and @8corner, and many others are.
Isn't that, and the fact that you'll all still be Top Of The TAPs, no matter what the actual (ultimately arbitrary) total is, enough??

 

[jlove]

This is the weirdest thread.

Not only that, it seems to be permeating other threads as well!

 

[Raise The Roof]

Couple of years ago!.

Hmm.

I think the important point, looking forward rather than back, is wouldn’t it be great if BIAS could survey far more than its 3,300 current members. I’ve previously been assured that most GpGers are members of BIAS and BU, but as there are probably double that number of members of GpG, my guess is that we only have 1 in 2 of you signed up.

If you are not already a member you can join us here: just paste the link below into your browser-

www.bias.org.uk/join/

 

[Brentford_till_die]

Been thinking about all sides of this debate and can accept that maybe something needs to change.
Yes, it probably makes sense that at some point we have to move to a rolling TAPs model. 5 years seems reasonable in the future if we have, say 8 or 9 years in the prem. Right now it risks disproportionately rewarding fans who have started or increased their match attendance since we got to the prem and disproportionately ‘penalising’ those who have spread their support +- equally whether we’ve been champ or prem. As others have suggested, maybe a mechanism where pre-2021 TAPs count for some percentage of their initial value (maybe exclude the ‘Kurt bonus’). Simply deleting them feels like that support in more difficult times is simply forgotten and erased.
Hope something like this has been considered.

 

[nick logan]

Nick, we know, and totally respect and salute how loyal you, and @8corner, and many others are.
Isn't that, and the fact that you'll all still be Top Of The TAPs, no matter what the actual (ultimately arbitrary) total is, enough??

Creme egg and i'll settle out of court

 

[Brentford_till_die]

Creme egg and i'll settle out of court

Still haven’t got mine from 2012 or whenever it was, make it 2.

 

[nick logan]

Still haven’t got mine from 2012 or whenever it was, make it 2.

No Coat will be along soon .

* shines egg gate beacon in Hounslow direction *

 

[nocoat]

No Coat will be along soon .

* shines egg gate beacon in Hounslow direction *

ISLEWORTH!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BEEcool]

Been thinking about all sides of this debate and can accept that maybe something needs to change.
Yes, it probably makes sense that at some point we have to move to a rolling TAPs model. 5 years seems reasonable in the future if we have, say 8 or 9 years in the prem. Right now it risks disproportionately rewarding fans who have started or increased their match attendance since we got to the prem and disproportionately ‘penalising’ those who have spread their support +- equally whether we’ve been champ or prem. As others have suggested, maybe a mechanism where pre-2021 TAPs count for some percentage of their initial value (maybe exclude the ‘Kurt bonus’). Simply deleting them feels like that support in more difficult times is simply forgotten and erased.
Hope something like this has been considered.

 

[Griffingreen]

The queue for Liverpool tickets is still wistfully recollected. Down Braemar Road, into the forecourt, along the side of the pitch, then - back out into Braemar Road again. How we laughed. I was in the queue behind Slatts who wasn't at all happy. Nobody had heard of TAPs in those days.

Were we even aware of glory hunters and Jonny come lately queueing with us?

 

[BEEcool]

The queue for Liverpool tickets is still wistfully recollected. Down Braemar Road, into the forecourt, along the side of the pitch, then - back out into Braemar Road again. How we laughed. I was in the queue behind Slatts who wasn't at all happy. Nobody had heard of TAPs in those days.

Reliant on wells back then?

 

[Wise old Bee]

Reliant on wells back then?

Dean Wells? Wrong thread.....

 

[Mikey Bee]

Been dipping in and out of this over the last week but the bullet points are my understanding.

• Data pre-PL is considered inaccurate
• TAPs introduced in 2013 so there are 8 seasons of inaccurate/Kurtified data
• Intent is to introduce a 5 year rolling plan for TAPs
• Proposal is to introduce this next season so the starting point would be 4 years of PL data + "one year"

It makes no sense for the whole of the pre-PL TAPs to be included next season or the plan wouldn't become effective until 26/27 season so I would imagine that half of your pre-PL TAPs will be discounted for next season with the remainder becoming the first year to "roll off" in 26/27.

I totally understand why those who will see a drop in their TAPs are unhappy with this but, in reality, it's just a number. With approx. 800 TAPs available per season, excluding cup games, 4000 will be the new 10k.

Whilst I was originally in favour of a gradual reduction of historical points, retaining a percentage of the pre-PL TAPs as a "badge of honour" introduces a level of complexity into the ongoing management of the system that some would argue is unnecessary and somewhat defeats the object of the plan which is, as I understand it, to ensure that those who currently regularly attend games will still be able to do so at the same time as opening up the opportunity for others who currently attend games who may otherwise miss out.

Why should I, as someone who only does 2-3 away games a season, get preference for a ticket over someone who is currently attending more games than me just because of history?

 

[horshambees]

Been dipping in and out of this over the last week but the bullet points are my understanding.

• Data pre-PL is considered inaccurate
• TAPs introduced in 2013 so there are 8 seasons of inaccurate/Kurtified data
• Intent is to introduce a 5 year rolling plan for TAPs
• Proposal is to introduce this next season so the starting point would be 4 years of PL data + "one year"

It makes no sense for the whole of the pre-PL TAPs to be included next season or the plan wouldn't become effective until 26/27 season so I would imagine that half of your pre-PL TAPs will be discounted for next season with the remainder becoming the first year to "roll off" in 26/27.

I totally understand why those who will see a drop in their TAPs are unhappy with this but, in reality, it's just a number. With approx. 800 TAPs available per season, excluding cup games, 4000 will be the new 10k.

Whilst I was originally in favour of a gradual reduction of historical points, retaining a percentage of the pre-PL TAPs as a "badge of honour" introduces a level of complexity into the ongoing management of the system that some would argue is unnecessary and somewhat defeats the object of the plan which is, as I understand it, to ensure that those who currently regularly attend games will still be able to do so at the same time as opening up the opportunity for others who currently attend games who may otherwise miss out.

Why should I, as someone who only does 2-3 away games a season, get preference for a ticket over someone who is currently attending more games than me just because of history?

So the idea is too encourage more younger fans to go too games and if we reduce their points and we reduce my pre 2020 points then they are still behind me and i still get first dibs.How do they catch up ?
My youngest is getting lots of points and cannot go without me because of his age,so reduce my points and reduce his and he is no further up the ladder.
So reduce my points,keep his and then neither of us may go because i might not get a ticket because younger fans are now buying tickets and that is the whole point of the points reduction.
I may be well off the mark here,but reducing the TAPS for everybody benefits those newer fans who turned up in 2021 more than the decades long supporter regardless of their age.
Its not my fault we reached these heights when i got a lot older,but i guess i want to see the current TAPs left alone.

 

[Mikey Bee]

So the idea is too encourage more younger fans to go too games and if we reduce their points and we reduce my pre 2020 points then they are still behind me and i still get first dibs.How do they catch up ?
My youngest is getting lots of points and cannot go without me because of his age,so reduce my points and reduce his and he is no further up the ladder.
So reduce my points,keep his and then neither of us may go because i might not get a ticket because younger fans are now buying tickets and that is the whole point of the points reduction.
I may be well off the mark here,but reducing the TAPS for everybody benefits those newer fans who turned up in 2021 more than the decades long supporter regardless of their age.
Its not my fault we reached these heights when i got a lot older,but i guess i want to see the current TAPs left alone.

I would suggest that the intent is to create a level playing field where current attendance trumps historical attendance (and crucially subsequent non-attendance) so both you and your youngest will have equal access to tickets based on you both continuing to attend.

I also understand your concerns around TAPs potentially benefitting those who only started in the PL years, specifically those bad actors who themselves are not physically attending, but I'm hoping that the impending announcement will address this and allay my fears. If not, my pitchfork is at the ready.

Regarding the question that some have raised around the problem this is looking to solve, a practical example is our upcoming visit to Muff (fnarr fnarr).

When the fixtures came out, I immediately discounted this game as I assumed I'd never have enough TAPs to attend so I booked a holiday for the international break. As it stands, tickets will be tantalisingly close to my historical TAPs level but I had a choice - fly on the Saturday and have 2 weeks in the sun or book flights on the Tuesday, and maybe get a match ticket, for a shorter break but, bizarrely, pay ~ £200 more. I've not been since the open terrace at Dean Court but I wasn't prepared to make that decision based on someone who no longer attends regularly but has more TAPs than me hoovering up the ticket to either use themselves or, more likely, give to someone else.

 

[horshambees]

I would suggest that the intent is to create a level playing field where current attendance trumps historical attendance (and crucially subsequent non-attendance) so both you and your youngest will have equal access to tickets based on you both continuing to attend.

I also understand your concerns around TAPs potentially benefitting those who only started in the PL years, specifically those bad actors who themselves are not physically attending, but I'm hoping that the impending announcement will address this and allay my fears. If not, my pitchfork is at the ready.

Regarding the question that some have raised around the problem this is looking to solve, a practical example is our upcoming visit to Muff (fnarr fnarr).

When the fixtures came out, I immediately discounted this game as I assumed I'd never have enough TAPs to attend so I booked a holiday for the international break. As it stands, tickets will be tantalisingly close to my historical TAPs level but I had a choice - fly on the Saturday and have 2 weeks in the sun or book flights on the Tuesday, and maybe get a match ticket, for a shorter break but, bizarrely, pay ~ £200 more. I've not been since the open terrace at Dean Court but I wasn't prepared to make that decision based on someone who no longer attends regularly but has more TAPs than me hoovering up the ticket to either use themselves or, more likely, give to someone else.

I take on board everything you say and here is a question.
If Muff were in the Championship or Leagues 1 or 2 would we be having this conversation ?

 

[Mikey Bee]

I take on board everything you say and here is a question.
If Muff were in the Championship or Leagues 1 or 2 would we be having this conversation ?

Of course not but both of us come from a time where we could pick and choose which games we rocked up to. Those days are gone so times have to change.

 

[horshambees]

Of course not but both of us come from a time where we could pick and choose which games we rocked up to. Those days are gone so times have to change.

Interesting.So the younger supporters for away games that we are struggling to sell an allocation for despite us old fkrs buying our tickets asap.
If that is what they want then just say we would rather someone a lot younger than you attending our games.
I would just say whatever and do what i did yesterday.
I will always find a game and i am beginning to understand why people leave the top flight game for local non league.

 

[rebus]

Interesting.So the younger supporters for away games that we are struggling to sell an allocation for despite us old fkrs buying our tickets asap.
If that is what they want then just say we would rather someone a lot younger than you attending our games.
I would just say whatever and do what i did yesterday.
I will always find a game and i am beginning to understand why people leave the top flight game for local non league.

With the change, it will take a maximum of five years solid support to get from no taps up to the top tranche. This actually benefits you and your son.

 

[Banana]

With the change, it will take a maximum of five years solid support to get from no taps up to the top tranche. This actually benefits you and your son.

…Assuming one can get tickets for every game.

 

[horshambees]

With the change, it will take a maximum of five years solid support to get from no taps up to the top tranche. This actually benefits you and your son.

I hope so.

 

[horshambees]

…Assuming one can get tickets for every game.

Thats another conversation

 

[rebus]

…Assuming one can get tickets for every game.

Even with a couple of games missing per season. The point is that there is a defined pathway. None at present unless you wait for years and years.

 

[Mikey Bee]

Interesting.So the younger supporters for away games that we are struggling to sell an allocation for despite us old fkrs buying our tickets asap.
If that is what they want then just say we would rather someone a lot younger than you attending our games.
I would just say whatever and do what i did yesterday.
I will always find a game and i am beginning to understand why people leave the top flight game for local non league.

I would say that the intent is that those who still actively attend games over a 5 year period will still be able to do so, regardless of their age or longevity of support. If we're struggling to sell an allocation, how much of that is down to people assuming they won't be able to attend and make the requisite pre-planning?

I genuinely hope that you and your youngest - or me! - aren't adversely affected by whatever changes are going to be announced in the coming days but we also have to accept that times move on. We'll continue to follow our club regardless but I really don't see why anyone should be able cherry pick their games based purely on history despite not regularly attending for 5 years...

 

[Griffingreen]

I don't feel it'll make much difference, but possibly the club is "future proofing" the whole TAP's system?

 

[Isleworth_Bee]

Sure, it shouldn’t be a closed shop.
But it isn’t it?
If you’re a new fan you can easily get your taps up by attending half of all away games which either don’t sell out or become available to all members.

The idea that as of next season a fan who has been with us since the lower league days (and that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re OAPs) will have same chance at getting a Bournemouth ticket as Mohammed from Hounslow with his half and half scarf whose only started to come to the Gtech since Man Utd have come to town is not right.

Mods bin this troll.

 

[horshambees]

I would say that the intent is that those who still actively attend games over a 5 year period will still be able to do so, regardless of their age or longevity of support. If we're struggling to sell an allocation, how much of that is down to people assuming they won't be able to attend and make the requisite pre-planning?

I genuinely hope that you and your youngest - or me! - aren't adversely affected by whatever changes are going to be announced in the coming days but we also have to accept that times move on. We'll continue to follow our club regardless but I really don't see why anyone should be able cherry pick their games based purely on history despite not regularly attending for 5 years...

I have missed one league game (Villa away),
Newcastle in the Cup and will more than likely miss Newcastle away in April.
Last season i did 36/38 (missed City away and Newcastle away )and i am 62.
I have earned my place in the queue and i quite like where i am and i guess i am reading the reasons and thinking fair enough you want to get younger fans to the games so we reduce those historic taps to narrow the gap we have.
After seeing how Fulham have behaved over renewal tickets for OAPs and the away allocation for CFC plus Levys Tottenham prices and of course Ratcliffes £66 a head at Old Trafford.(£57 for last fridays FA Cup match for everyone).
And all along i like our system which is fair and rewarding and if you really want a ticket you will get one (i know the difficulty for those low allocation games) and we know how it all works because we study it and follow it and pass all the info onto each other because we are who we are.
And all of a sudden someone somewhere doesnt like it.
And its changing and that is for a reason none of us really know about so we try and guess what will happen next.
Personally i would leave it as it is.
But that is me.

 

[Mikey Bee]

I have missed one league game (Villa away),
Newcastle in the Cup and will more than likely miss Newcastle away in April.
Last season i did 36/38 (missed City away and Newcastle away )and i am 62.
I have earned my place in the queue and i quite like where i am and i guess i am reading the reasons and thinking fair enough you want to get younger fans to the games so we reduce those historic taps to narrow the gap we have.

You appear to be deliberately missing the point - you won't miss out based on your current attendance - but crack on.

I missed out on a guaranteed ticket in May 2021 by 13 points but accepted that because most of 30+ my years were pre-TAPs. I was lucky enough to get one in the NHS lottery but why should I begrudge someone who who attended more regularly than me in the years leading up to the game?