Lokster
Man on a Mission
New Stadium Progress
Or try and find a multi-millionaire with an itchy wallet, flog our controlling interest to him or her and cross our fingers and hope he or she doesn't turn out to be Ron Noades in disguise.
New Stadium Progress
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Or try and find a multi-millionaire with an itchy wallet, flog our controlling interest to him or her and cross our fingers and hope he or she doesn't turn out to be Ron Noades in disguise.
Carri Bee Un
The Most Esteemed and Very Reverend
New Stadium Progress
Anyone going to answer me? is it a daft question? What's our balance sheet going to look like after this deal goes through?
My thanks in advance for anyone that fancies answering me or pointing out where this has been answered.
My thanks in advance for anyone that fancies answering me or pointing out where this has been answered.
Lokster
Man on a Mission
New Stadium Progress
Anyone going to answer me? is it a daft question? What's our balance sheet going to look like after this deal goes through?
My thanks in advance for anyone that fancies answering me or pointing out where this has been answered.
My main concern about the new stadium is I'm yet to hear anything approaching a business/finance plan for Lionel Road. You might argue that it is all up in the air until planning permission etc but now is surely the time to put the initial bits and pieces into place to justify the move, which is currently just an exercise in debt reduction.
I've heard nothing about how we intend to survive in the new stadium; finance playing budgets etc. There must be something out there or the whole thing is just...a pipe dream?
Once in do we own the ground or is it leased?
If it is leased will we have to pay the owners money each season?
If so, how much?
Have we made estimates of the crowd size/prices for estimated cashflow and therefore the kind of playing budgets we can realistically support?
Are we assuming we'll move in as BFC 'Supporters Owned' or will we be dependent on cash from 'sugar daddies'?
Then there's questions about additional income from bars; corporates etc...is that going to all go to BFC or will some go to our landlords?
I'm just a bit concerned that there's a blissful belief that once Lionel Road is signed, sealed and delivered everything will be fine.
New Stadium Progress
Thanks, Joe.
Much appreciated.
However, I am also anxious to know if there are still any alternative stadium sites and similar projects, being considered by BU and BFC.
I hope Lionel Road does proceed satisfactorily, but, if it does not, then I believe it is vital that there is a 'plan b' etc, given that our longer- term future a Griffin Park is said, by many, to be rather bleak.
New Stadium Progress
Anyone going to answer me? is it a daft question? What's our balance sheet going to look like after this deal goes through?
My thanks in advance for anyone that fancies answering me or pointing out where this has been answered.
Carri Bee Un,
If the club moves to a new stadium debt free, then there should be a fixed asset at the market value (maybe £30m+) agreed for the new stadium, held by BFC or BFC (Lionel Road) Limited.
The football company would still carry forward it’s current assets of £0.5m or so, current liabilities of £0.5m or so (assuming the overdraft is paid-off) and deferred revenue (season tickets and/or sponsorships paid in advance) of perhaps £0.5m.
The group balance sheet would have the value of the property interest in a new 20,000 seat stadium and net liabilities approximately equal to deferred revenues of say £0.5m (or more if there is a big increase in season ticket sales/sponsorships immediately prior to the move.)
New Stadium Progress
I'm just a bit concerned that there's a blissful belief that once Lionel Road is signed, sealed and delivered everything will be fine.
Lokster,
Swansea started ground-sharing at the new council owned Liberty Stadium in 2005. They pay ground share rents to a stadium management company who deal with all the ground maintenance, parking and associated costs. A similar arrangement to the BFC plans.
They reported a 30% increase in attendances after moving from the Vetch and a profit of £447k in their first year at the new stadium in League One.
http://www.swanseacity.net/page/Latest/0,,10354~1295790,00.html
They spent all the profits in the second year and maintained one of the highest playing budgets in the division during 2007/08, but clinched promotion to the Championship last season and have sold in excess of 8000 season tickets this year.
Even so, competing and staying-in the Championship needs a big-step up in playing squad spend. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/footba...on-the-line-in-financial-game-91466-22501484/
So the moral, (as we all know) notwithstanding new revenue sources you never have enough money in football. However, a modern stadium can bring options the club does not have now and the potential for a big leg-up in pushing up the divisions.
rebus
On my final warning
New Stadium Progress
The BFC company structure has yet to be decided as regards this matter so, again, this is pure speculation on Joe's part.
Nick Hester
Formerly known as Greenholme Bee
New Stadium Progress
Darlington moved to a brand spanking new 25,000 seater stadium..their current home average attendance is 3,500.
When asked most Darlo supporters said it is souless, empty, no atmosphere and hardly worth turning up for football there nowadays..
Why do Brentford think we will be any different...???
When asked most Darlo supporters said it is souless, empty, no atmosphere and hardly worth turning up for football there nowadays..
Why do Brentford think we will be any different...???
rebus
On my final warning
New Stadium Progress
Darlington's new stadium is clearly the exception to the rule of increased attendances in a new stadium. They never should have moved into anything higher than 15k but the Chairman's ego saw to that.
I'll be quite frank, if we don't move to Lionel Road then many seasons of Blue Square football will be coming our way unless a fairy godmother sprinkles about several million quid towards us. I know you want to stay at Griffin Park but look forward to non league football if that's the case.
Luton Bee
Gone
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New Stadium Progress
So the rumours about us planning on building a 10,000 seater stadium would be about right in your view?
rebus
On my final warning
Nick Hester
Formerly known as Greenholme Bee
Lokster
Man on a Mission
New Stadium Progress
Thanks Mark.
I'm assuming that we have actually given some thought to all of this though and we aren't just crossing our fingers and hoping we'll be as successful as other clubs with new grounds may have been.
Whilst I agree with Joe that a new ground does provide the potential for additional income streams that Griffin Park does not I'd like to know what we are aiming for.
It all still seems more like a 'let's get out of GP; get into Lionel Road and all our new income streams will allow us to cancel out our £500-600k a season losses dream' than a properly thought out business plan.
I'm sure I'm wrong about that and much thought has been given to these questions otherwise we wouldn't be going ahead with the plan would we?
Nick Hester
Formerly known as Greenholme Bee
New Stadium Progress
Nick Hester
Formerly known as Greenholme Bee
New Stadium Progress
New Stadium Progress
You may be right. That is why I believe it makes sense for the club to look into other new stadium possibilities.Just in case...
Do you know if this is still something that BU and BFC are looking into, Mark?
rebus
On my final warning
New Stadium Progress
Well that will be great with 5,000 people in it...
You know as well as I do there is an uplift in attendances for every club - bar Darlington
- that have moved into a new stadium in the past 15 years. I suspect that we would be getting at least 7-8,000 outside the Championship in a new stadium, something which will never happen again at Griffin Park unfortunately. We are in London so have a tremendous catchment area to tap into.
I can imagine supporters from Reading saying the same thing about leaving Elm Park in the early 1990s.
Geoff, the land for Lionel Road has been bought and that is where the energies lie at present. The next step is a planning application.
New Stadium Progress
Greenholme,
I came across this complaint from the chair of the Swans Trust recently.
New Stadium Progress
Why do you suspect this?
Has some sort of research been carried out?
Are these figures based on us being in League One? Your comment suggests it does not matter which league we are in "outside of the championship"
New Stadium Progress
I can imagine supporters from Reading saying the same thing about leaving Elm Park in the early 1990s.
I would be quite happy to accept your point on this if we had someone with the sugar daddy qualities of Madjeski on board.
New Stadium Progress
Mark's comments started "I suspect..." which should help you answer your second question!
New Stadium Progress
Not until he has answered the first one - but thanks for your input anyway
New Stadium Progress
I confidently predict the answer will be "no", otherwise Mark would have started "According to research.." rather than "I suspect" which is another way of saying "I am guessing".
New Stadium Progress
So are you implying there have been no discussions by those making decisions regarding the new stadium regarding the future ownership and Joe is talking complete rubbish or is he giving us a overview of a possible ownership option that is being discussed.
I would hope that there is already some sort of ownership plan being considered as the land has now been purchased.
New Stadium Progress
Mark said that the ownership model has not yet been decided
There has been (and continues to be) a lot of consideration and discussion about the complex issues that is influenced by all sorts of tricky issues such as taxation. These are being led by the BFC(LR) company.
Quite how you think that because a final decision has not been made implies there have been no discussions is beyond me.
New Stadium Progress
Much of the preliminary detail is referenced on the BU website here http://www.beesunited.org.uk/content/view/332/
Swansea is an example of a current working model of a football club partnering with a rugby club in a new stadium.
Swansea is an example of a current working model of a football club partnering with a rugby club in a new stadium.
RoyalOakBee
Active member
New Stadium Progress
Mark, has the land has been brought by Barratts? If so surely we must consider NOW the possibility of a major builder going bust during the ongoing and ever growing recession? If so, why wont that builder be Barratts?
You also say that if we were to progress upwards into League One that we would never see 7-8000 fans at Griffin Park. This confuses me as the capacity is currently far greater than that. Also the need for the new stadium centres upon so called 7 day useage and NOT the increased capacity that the new stadium would provide us on match days, does it not?
Simply put, I believe that the new company entrusted with delivering a new stadium for the club would be irresponsible if it it did not at least have a contingency plan. Politically I can understand why they might want to not publicly debate Plan B against Plan A as it would underminbe the whole partnership with the developer but surely an architects drawings for demolishing Griffin Park side by side and redeveloping the existing site as cash income increases, would not cost the club the earth. If not paid for by BFC (LR) Ltd then by the club or BU or perhaps a benefactor of the club who might see the sense of having an alternative plan.
Finally, I can't see the assumption that anything less than moving to a new stadium WILL lead to conference football. We are not moving to a new stadium at present and we are moving towards automatic promotion. Shall I put a certain bet on relegation next season and the season after if the new stadium continues to be delayed by the credit crunch. Can you guarantee that that bet will be a winner?
RoyalOakBee
Active member
New Stadium Progress
which page is the answer to my question about the development partner going bust before or after the purchase?
Carri Bee Un
The Most Esteemed and Very Reverend
New Stadium Progress
Thanks
Where's the credit then? Is it simply our net profit on disposal of GP? I.e. Bassets get all the profit from the deal but we get unfettered ownership of a shiny new stadium?
If this is the case then
niceMaybe I should actually read the BU website :computer:
New Stadium Progress
Thanks
Where's the credit then? Is it simply our net profit on disposal of GP? I.e. Bassets get all the profit from the deal but we get unfettered ownership of a shiny new stadium?
If this is the case then
Maybe I should actually read the BU website :computer:
I believe that it has been publicly stated on many occasions that the whole idea is for BFC to get a new stadium "for free".
Nick Hester
Formerly known as Greenholme Bee
New Stadium Progress
You know as well as I do there is an uplift in attendances for every club - bar Darlington
I suspect that we would be getting at least 7-8,000 outside the Championship in a new stadium, something which will never happen again at Griffin Park unfortunately. We are in London so have a tremendous catchment area to tap into.
I can imagine supporters from Reading saying the same thing about leaving Elm Park in the early 1990s.
Geoff, the land for Lionel Road has been bought and that is where the energies lie at present. The next step is a planning application.
I suspect not... and Reading has a bigger catchment area, had a multi milionaire behind it etc etc... Darlington is the prime example I look at.
Nick Hester
Formerly known as Greenholme Bee
New Stadium Progress
New Stadium Progress
Well not unless they faked the interviews they did with Darlington fans..
Most of them?
Carri Bee Un
The Most Esteemed and Very Reverend
New Stadium Progress
Given some of the public statements that have come out of representatives of BFC and BU over the last decade or so you'll understand why it's nice to be absolutely sure. When someone mentions they're getting a 30M debit and is fuzzy about the other side of that entry I get an accounting erection :bound:
rebus
On my final warning
New Stadium Progress
Bigger than London? We've got millions on our doorstep.
Thanks
Where's the credit then? Is it simply our net profit on disposal of GP? I.e. Bassets get all the profit from the deal but we get unfettered ownership of a shiny new stadium?
If this is the case then
Maybe I should actually read the BU website :computer:
Joe has not been a BFC/BU board member for over twelve months now, is not in any way connected with the Lionel Road scheme, and his comments should be taken in that context. Thankfully, things have moved on since November 2007.
unBEEliveable
You reds..
New Stadium Progress
lol
did you even write this with a straight face?? You must be of the same business school as the owners of Woolworths.........
New Stadium Progress
Banana has not been a BFC/BU board member for over twelve days now, is not in any way connected with the Lionel Road scheme, and his comments should be taken in that context.
Carri Bee Un
The Most Esteemed and Very Reverend
New Stadium Progress
I am the High Crowned Prince of the Griffin Park Grapevine Site News and Views Forum and have been since the dawn of time. My questions should be considered in that context.
New Stadium Progress
Thanks, Mark.You know as well as I do there is an uplift in attendances for every club - bar Darlington
I suspect that we would be getting at least 7-8,000 outside the Championship in a new stadium, something which will never happen again at Griffin Park unfortunately. We are in London so have a tremendous catchment area to tap into.
I can imagine supporters from Reading saying the same thing about leaving Elm Park in the early 1990s.
Geoff, the land for Lionel Road has been bought and that is where the energies lie at present. The next step is a planning application.
Are you saying then that BFC and BU do not ,therefore have any alternative site options under any consideration whatsoever?
If the planning consents are not given, and/or the scheme hits other problems, our club would then be facing a very bleak future indeed, based upon your summary of our prospects at Griffin Park.
Surely, it makes good business sense to have other contingency plans under serious consideration? Just in case...
blunstone
Active member
New Stadium Progress
it would be wonderful to swap old GP for a spanking new stadium that is twice the size.
with my most optimistic hat one, i simply cannot see it happening unless we have to pay an enormous rent or have vast loans.
people just don't do new for old without heavy strings firmly attached ---- even arthur dailey* knew that.
(small time con man in the 1980s tv series Minder for the benefit of any under 30s!)
rebus
On my final warning
New Stadium Progress
The first paragraph is correct. Geoff, I can only repeat what I've previously said. The land for Lionel Road has been bought and Hounslow Council have indicated that the their preferred stadium site for BFC should be there.
Nothing is ever ruled out but I repeat all energies are concentrated on Lionel Road. The BFCLR team will have contingencies but you have to bear in mind we are so far down the track with this project.
Debt is not a dirty way of doing business as long as you can service it. Our way out of our current financial predicament is through a new stadium.
New Stadium Progress
Any new stadium is a risk but is it a bigger risk than staying in a stadium that has no additional benefits beyond the football match?
The situation of Lionel Road is such that it can add so much more additional annual income outside of football that those revenue streams will mean that team strengthening and annual team budgets are higher to allow a better chance of success on the pitch. This then should lead to bigger gates and receipts and hopefully promotions. Yes there will be the likes of Darlington who appear at present to fail. But additional revenue streams has still allowed them to have a bigger playing budget and compete at the top end of the current table. That is when it is important to realise that simply having a bigger budget and wage bill won't guarantee success on the pitch. In many cases it has worked though. Out of interest where were Hull City a few years back and where are they now? Swansea the same? reading the same? Ok we can look at catchment areas but imho Lionel Road is ideally suited to a very large catchment area as well as being ideally located for London transport networks for bus, train & aircraft. This project is not solely about football crowds, but about football club income and I would hope that LR can deliver sufficient additional income for the crowds to regularly rise above the current average when some success on the field comes our way. Indeed at first it might seem souless and empty when only a quarter full but we must look beyond the first year or so and work towards a solid foundation base for many years to come.
Staying at GP could be plan B but all I then envisage is some small updating on a limited basis with a couple of additional revenue streams taking over part of New Road for example that then lets you end up with something like Kenilworth Road.
The situation of Lionel Road is such that it can add so much more additional annual income outside of football that those revenue streams will mean that team strengthening and annual team budgets are higher to allow a better chance of success on the pitch. This then should lead to bigger gates and receipts and hopefully promotions. Yes there will be the likes of Darlington who appear at present to fail. But additional revenue streams has still allowed them to have a bigger playing budget and compete at the top end of the current table. That is when it is important to realise that simply having a bigger budget and wage bill won't guarantee success on the pitch. In many cases it has worked though. Out of interest where were Hull City a few years back and where are they now? Swansea the same? reading the same? Ok we can look at catchment areas but imho Lionel Road is ideally suited to a very large catchment area as well as being ideally located for London transport networks for bus, train & aircraft. This project is not solely about football crowds, but about football club income and I would hope that LR can deliver sufficient additional income for the crowds to regularly rise above the current average when some success on the field comes our way. Indeed at first it might seem souless and empty when only a quarter full but we must look beyond the first year or so and work towards a solid foundation base for many years to come.
Staying at GP could be plan B but all I then envisage is some small updating on a limited basis with a couple of additional revenue streams taking over part of New Road for example that then lets you end up with something like Kenilworth Road.
Harry Butler
Member
New Stadium Progress
Yeah well we have Q.P.R Fulham and Chelsea on our doorsteps too.And one could say that they are bigger and more succssesful and still struggle to some extent to keep their fan base intrested so i think your 8000ish at Griffin park is bollo.A new stadium will spark some initial intrest at first BUT if the product is poor then we will have our hardcore 3.5-4.0 thousand turning up with a few more away fans to cross our new white elephant off their been to list.Bigger than London? We've got millions on our doorstep.
Joe has not been a BFC/BU board member for over twelve months now, is not in any way connected with the Lionel Road scheme, and his comments should be taken in that context. Thankfully, things have moved on since November 2007.
Owlsmoor_Bee
Moderator
New Stadium Progress
Yeah well we have Q.P.R Fulham and Chelsea on our doorsteps too.And one could say that they are bigger and more succssesful and still struggle to some extent to keep their fan base intrested so i think your 8000ish at Griffin park is bollo.A new stadium will spark some initial intrest at first BUT if the product is poor then we will have our hardcore 3.5-4.0 thousand turning up with a few more away fans to cross our new white elephant off their been to list.
I know it's probably the umpteenth time this has been asked of you on this thread, but if you're so convinced Lionel Road will be a white elephant, then what alternative do you propose ? Or would you simply prefer to avoid the question again and continue to pour scorn on the efforts of those who've worked so f***ing hard to progress the project this far ? :sad:
New Stadium Progress
You know as well as I do there is an uplift in attendances for every club - bar Darlington
I suspect that we would be getting at least 7-8,000 outside the Championship in a new stadium, something which will never happen again at Griffin Park unfortunately. We are in London so have a tremendous catchment area to tap into.
I can imagine supporters from Reading saying the same thing about leaving Elm Park in the early 1990s.
Not sure i believe this , the main problem i see is that we are in London.
So many teams to choose from !
Readings went up because of their location,surely ?
As did others (except Darlo's) because of their locations , this is the problem for us.
Just because we get a brand new shiny stadium , it doesn't mean our attendances will rise....or have i got that all wrong ?