New Stadium Progress

[Harry Butler]

I know it's probably the umpteenth time this has been asked of you on this thread, but if you're so convinced Lionel Road will be a white elephant, then what alternative do you propose ? Or would you simply prefer to avoid the question again and continue to pour scorn on the efforts of those who've worked so f***ing hard to progress the project this far ? :sad:

Yep.

 

[Owlsmoor_Bee]

Yep.

Just what I expected. Pathetic.

 

[Gee Bee]

Not sure i believe this , the main problem i see is that we are in London.
So many teams to choose from !

Readings went up because of their location,surely ?
As did others (except Darlo's) because of their locations , this is the problem for us.
Just because we get a brand new shiny stadium , it doesn't mean our attendances will rise....or have i got that all wrong ?

Readings went up because of success on the pitch surely? This success on the pitch was in some way due to the additional revenue streams which enabled them to spend more on the football product and bring success and then bigger gates.
Too many of you are looking at it as a pure football product. The new stadium can produce more than that, and from that the football could/should improve along with gates.
Hounslow and surrounding boroughs have larger population than Reading too so I would suggest our catcment area is actually very large in population to compete alongside Fuulham & QPR.

 

[Owlsmoor_Bee]

Readings went up because of success on the pitch surely? This success on the pitch was in some way due to the additional revenue streams which enabled them to spend more on the football product and bring success and then bigger gates.
Too many of you are looking at it as a pure football product. The new stadium can produce more than that, and from that the football could/should improve along with gates.
Hounslow and surrounding boroughs have larger population than Reading too so I would suggest our catcment area is actually very large in population to compete alongside Fuulham & QPR.

 

[AB]

Readings went up because of success on the pitch surely? This success on the pitch was in some way due to the additional revenue streams which enabled them to spend more on the football product and bring success and then bigger gates.
Too many of you are looking at it as a pure football product. The new stadium can produce more than that, and from that the football could/should improve along with gates.
Hounslow and surrounding boroughs have larger population than Reading too so I would suggest our catcment area is actually very large in population to compete alongside Fuulham & QPR.

It is worth noting that Reading achieved success on the pitch before the new ground was built (having just missed out on promotion to the Premiership while still at Elm Park).

Darlington is a special case - the move happened while they were owned by a crook who had turned many fans against the club. The new ground was also built without any infrastructure around it, whereas the old ground was a few minutes walk from the station in the centre of town.

If I understand the case correctly, the move to LR will involve refinancing the club so that it is in a much stronger position to compete on the pitch. Combined with the initial bounce that a shiny new ground will give that would itself utterly transform the club and its prospects. There are so many lapsed Bees fans who occasionally get enticed back only to leave again (eg after the 97 play off defeat) shaking their heads and going "same old Brentford". Those fans are unlikely to come back to GP unless we're flying high in the Championship because anything less is still "same old Brentford". Even when we have a great team and manager (eg 2001-2) which clearly would have prospered in the Championship, we know that in fact we'd have disposed of the lot and had a relegation battle because we were already at the limit of what the club could possibly maintain without a deep pocketed and generous backer.

Same old Brentford have been talking about a new ground for decades and have spent all but one year of that time in the bottom two divisions. There are teams in the Blue Square which have spent more time in the top two divisions since WWII than Brentford. We need to stop being same old Brentford and the Lionel Road plans look to be a very realistic way of doing this. We don't need a Plan B because it already exists - do as we are now, making the very best of a bad lot (perhaps this is Plan C, Plan B having been the financially managed decline to our equilibrium level of support and division under Downes). Doesn't mean that we couldn't have been in a different position today, but we can't undo 20+ years of weak management which have left us where we are.

 

[SpiderBee]

I know it's probably the umpteenth time this has been asked of you on this thread, but if you're so convinced Lionel Road will be a white elephant, then what alternative do you propose ? Or would you simply prefer to avoid the question again and continue to pour scorn on the efforts of those who've worked so f***ing hard to progress the project this far ? :sad:

Well........we could always groundshare somewhere in Surrey?:suspect::laugh:

 

[Luke Kirton]

It is worth noting that Reading achieved success on the pitch before the new ground was built (having just missed out on promotion to the Premiership while still at Elm Park).

Can people help me clear this point up. I thought Reading moved to the Mad Stad in 1998 the year they were relageted to Division Two. They had to wait until 2002 before promotion to back to division one.

Not sure what happened before that but I have always assumed that the move from Elm Park to Mad Stad resulted in more fans turning up even though they had been relegated?

 

[rebus]

Can people help me clear this point up. I thought Reading moved to the Mad Stad in 1998 the year they were relageted to Division Two. They had to wait until 2002 before promotion to back to division one.

Not sure what happened before that but I have always assumed that the move from Elm Park to Mad Stad resulted in more fans turning up even though they had been relegated?

I think AB refers to their success in 1994 and near miss in 1995. His post is spot on and your point about Reading's attendances increasing after relegation is correct.

Sometimes I get the feeling that some fans on this forum would just prefer to swan in at five to three without a queue, get "their" seat and watch football in front of 4,000 forever.

 

[SpiderBee]

I think AB refers to their success in 1994 and near miss in 1995. His post is spot on and your point about Reading's attendances increasing after relegation is correct.

Sometimes I get the feeling that some fans on this forum would just prefer to swan in at five to three without a queue, get "their" seat and watch football in front of 4,000 forever.

As opposed to becoming a prawn sarnie type of follower?

 

[Harry Butler]

I think AB refers to their success in 1994 and near miss in 1995. His post is spot on and your point about Reading's attendances increasing after relegation is correct.

Sometimes I get the feeling that some fans on this forum would just prefer to swan in at five to three without a queue, get "their" seat and watch football in front of 4,000 forever.

MMMM Yeah sounds about right.I am at the right club then?

 

[rebus]

As opposed to becoming a prawn sarnie type of follower?

I don't see too many prawn sandwiches at Swansea and Millwall. If this club is to get anywhere it will need a combination of both, whether you like it or not.

If people want to support a lower division side for the rest of their life then fine, but find another club to support.

 

[Luke Kirton]

I think AB refers to their success in 1994 and near miss in 1995. His post is spot on and your point about Reading's attendances increasing after relegation is correct.

Sometimes I get the feeling that some fans on this forum would just prefer to swan in at five to three without a queue, get "their" seat and watch football in front of 4,000 forever.

Cheers Mark.

Can I be counted as one of those people who wish to turn up at five past three, stand to watch the match and have a crowd of over 10,000

 

[SpiderBee]

I don't see too many prawn sandwiches at Swansea and Millwall. If this club is to get anywhere it will need a combination of both, whether you like it or not.

If people want to support a lower division side for the rest of their life then fine, but find another club to support.

Easy tiger.

Having spent 34 years of watching (mostly) dross, I am pretty resigned to watching similar until I pop my clogs.
Anything else is a bonus!
I will be delighted to congratulate everyone when this project has been delivered.
Problem is, we've heard it all before!
Anyway obviously worked well!

 

[Harry Butler]

Cheers Mark.

Can I be counted as one of those people who wish to turn up at five past three, stand to watch the match and have a crowd of over 10,000

You should be able to find Sheperds bush on your sat-nav then....and good luck.

 

[Luke Kirton]

You should be able to find Sheperds bush on your sat-nav then....and good luck.

I will not react I will not be drawn in. ****

 

[rebus]

Easy tiger.

Having spent 34 years of watching (mostly) dross, I am pretty resigned to watching similar until I pop my clogs.
Anything else is a bonus!
I will be delighted to congratulate everyone when this project has been delivered.
Problem is, we've heard it all before!
Anyway obviously worked well!

"Resigned" is a bit different to "prefer".

 

[SpiderBee]

"Resigned" is a bit different to "prefer".

In my experiences of watching BFC, sadness (and depression) has vastly outweighed any happiness gleaned.:alcoholic
But, that's Brentford innit!!!lol

I wish we could have a definitive (or deadline) date of when (if) we move to Lionel Road.
Just wondering whether I should extend my life insurance policies (or even buy any)!
Or buy a house on Kew Green!

 

[nick logan]

Not sure i believe this , the main problem i see is that we are in London.
So many teams to choose from !

Readings went up because of their location,surely ?
As did others (except Darlo's) because of their locations , this is the problem for us.
Just because we get a brand new shiny stadium , it doesn't mean our attendances will rise....or have i got that all wrong ?

Millwall

 

[GEOFFBEE]

It is worth noting that Reading achieved success on the pitch before the new ground was built (having just missed out on promotion to the Premiership while still at Elm Park).

Darlington is a special case - the move happened while they were owned by a crook who had turned many fans against the club. The new ground was also built without any infrastructure around it, whereas the old ground was a few minutes walk from the station in the centre of town.

If I understand the case correctly, the move to LR will involve refinancing the club so that it is in a much stronger position to compete on the pitch. Combined with the initial bounce that a shiny new ground will give that would itself utterly transform the club and its prospects. There are so many lapsed Bees fans who occasionally get enticed back only to leave again (eg after the 97 play off defeat) shaking their heads and going "same old Brentford". Those fans are unlikely to come back to GP unless we're flying high in the Championship because anything less is still "same old Brentford". Even when we have a great team and manager (eg 2001-2) which clearly would have prospered in the Championship, we know that in fact we'd have disposed of the lot and had a relegation battle because we were already at the limit of what the club could possibly maintain without a deep pocketed and generous backer.

Same old Brentford have been talking about a new ground for decades and have spent all but one year of that time in the bottom two divisions. There are teams in the Blue Square which have spent more time in the top two divisions since WWII than Brentford. We need to stop being same old Brentford and the Lionel Road plans look to be a very realistic way of doing this. We don't need a Plan B because it already exists - do as we are now, making the very best of a bad lot (perhaps this is Plan C, Plan B having been the financially managed decline to our equilibrium level of support and division under Downes). Doesn't mean that we couldn't have been in a different position today, but we can't undo 20+ years of weak management which have left us where we are.

OK, but the 'plans B, C, D, etc' that some of us are suggesting relate to the club bearing in mind other poential sites.Just in case Lionel Road does not happen...

 

[GEOFFBEE]

I don't see too many prawn sandwiches at Swansea and Millwall. If this club is to get anywhere it will need a combination of both, whether you like it or not.

If people want to support a lower division side for the rest of their life then fine, but find another club to support.

I do not think it is wise to rebuke other fans in this manner.
We need all the support we can get, even if some of those fans share different views...

 

[Banana]

OK, but the 'plans B, C, D, etc' that some of us are suggesting relate to the club bearing in mind other poential sites.Just in case Lionel Road does not happen...

What resources do you suggest BFC divert away from Lionel Road to investigate other sites bearing in mind the amount of time and effort that has been necessary in finding and securing a site over the last decade or so?

How much money would you expect/like/suggest BFC to make available (remember that Barratts have paid for all the costs incurred (including historical costs) of Lionel Road)

Have you read the numerous posts on this site and communications from the club that the London Borough of Hounslow will not support any other site apart from Lionel Road and that their support is vital to the project's success?

 

[Wise old Bee]

Surely the nearest parallel would be Millwall not Reading as the catchment is similar with other teams close by. I would have thought that a groundshare with one of the local rugby sides would be essential for us. I was one of the first to have a big sneer at LR, so well done to all those involved so far but what degree of certainty is there that the project will be the success that some seem to think?

 

[Owlsmoor_Bee]

Surely the nearest parallel would be Millwall not Reading as the catchment is similar with other teams close by. I would have thought that a groundshare with one of the local rugby sides would be essential for us. I was one of the first to have a big sneer at LR, so well done to all those involved so far but what degree of certainty is there that the project will be the success that some seem to think?

I don't think there can ever be any great degree of certainty that a project of this nature will be a success, more an educated judgement based on the experiences of other clubs who have moved to new stadia in recent years. What is a certainty though imo, is that remaining at GP will result in the club having to face grave financial difficulties (even more so than we are currently) and is therefore simply not an option

 

[GEOFFBEE]

What resources do you suggest BFC divert away from Lionel Road to investigate other sites bearing in mind the amount of time and effort that has been necessary in finding and securing a site over the last decade or so?

How much money would you expect/like/suggest BFC to make available (remember that Barratts have paid for all the costs incurred (including historical costs) of Lionel Road)

Have you read the numerous posts on this site and communications from the club that the London Borough of Hounslow will not support any other site apart from Lionel Road and that their support is vital to the project's success?

I have not asked for vital resources to be diverted away.I just expect the club-and BU- to have been prudent enough to bear in mind and explore other possibilities, just in case needed. If Lionel Road does not materialise, then, from what some have said on here, BFC will be well and truly in the mire.That is something I do not wish to see.
My understanding of the situation is that, currently, Hounslow do prefer the Lionel Road option, and will probably not support an alternative whilst Lionel Road looks like going ahead.That is not, however the same as saying they will never support any other option at all.Unless you know different.
Council leaderships come and go, and have been known to change their mind.
It was not that long ago that the then Leader of Hounslow Council was favouring BFC moving to Feltham Arena( I was at the public meeting in Bedfont when he spoke in its favour, and was keen to see it as part of the Feltham Regeneration, and a way of honouring the Council's promise of a new sports stadium within the borough)
Also,Lionel Road could fall through for various other reasons., some of which may be outside our control.
I therefore think it is wise for BFC and BU to have, at the very least, some other contingency plan in mind.Indeed, in my opinion, it would be foolish to ignore this possibility.
I want to see our club have a great future, and hopefully, in a fine stadium, at Lionel Road.But I do not want to see us, in a few years time, with the nightmare scenario of no Lionel Road, and no other viable option either...

 

[Banana]

I have not asked for vital resources to be diverted away.I just expect the club-and BU- to have been prudent enough to bear in mind and explore other possibilities

Where do you expect the resources to come from to "explore other possibilities" if you do not divert those resources from somewhere else or pay for additional resources?

 

[Nick Hester]

GP forever!

Bring in the Sugar Daddy!!!

 

[Banana]

GP forever!

Bring in the Sugar Daddy!!!

Which one, there are soooooooo many to choose from. A certain Mr R Noades has some spare cash I hear.

 

[Harry Butler]

Surely the nearest parallel would be Millwall not Reading as the catchment is similar with other teams close by. I would have thought that a groundshare with one of the local rugby sides would be essential for us. I was one of the first to have a big sneer at LR, so well done to all those involved so far but what degree of certainty is there that the project will be the success that some seem to think?

errr London Bronco's ring any bells? We had some vital extra cash with them didn't we? Made a bit of a mess of the playing surface though!

 

[GEOFFBEE]

Where do you expect the resources to come from to "explore other possibilities" if you do not divert those resources from somewhere else or pay for additional resources?

Looking at other sites, having talks , discussing and carefully considering options need not cost much, at this stage.
Are you trying to say that BU and BFC should not do so?
Are you able to guarantee that Lionel Road will definately materialise ?
Or is it simply that you again resent someone expressing a different opinion to yourself ?

 

[rebus]

GP forever!

And a death to BFC by a thousand cuts.

 

[Banana]

Looking at other sites, having talks , discussing and carefully considering options need not cost much, at this stage.
Are you trying to say that BU and BFC should not do so?
Are you able to guarantee that Lionel Road will definately materialise ?
Or is it simply that you again resent someone expressing a different opinion to yourself ?

You failed to answer my question. WHO is going to look at other sites, have talks, have discussions and carefully consider options. And how are they going to do all of that without disrupting the carefully built alliances of stakeholders that has been constructed in order to progress Lionel Road?

You can have a different opinion, but you need to be able to justify its relative merits.

 

[Banana]

This is an example of the political support the Lionel Road site has, going around looking for another site ain't going to look too clever IMHO

By courtesy of an invitation from Ann Keen the MP for Brentford and Isleworth, Brentford Football Club was well represented at The House of Commons earlier today.

The MP, who is also the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Health Services, hosted a Reception within The House to mark the uniqueness of Brentford Football Club as a community owned club, using the power of sport to promote education, health and social inclusion. It was also an opportunity to share the excitement at the progress and the potential of the proposed new Brentford Community Stadium to contribute to Brentford's regeneration.

Present at the reception were representatives of the different facets of the Club including such as the Community Sports Trust, The Griffin Park Learning Zone, Bees United, members of the Board and staff and of course most importantly representing the most integral part of the Club, Manager Andy Scott on behalf of the playing squad.

In addition there were representatives from the many different bodies who are crucial to the ongoing success of the Football Club within the community and even more crucially the long term viability of a new Stadium.

Also in attendance was The Sports Minister, Gerry Sutcliffe MP who made a speech in support of the Stadium proposals whilst admitting that he himself is a Bradford City supporter.

We hope to bring you photos from this prestigious event tomorrow.

 

[Luke Kirton]

Looking at other sites, having talks , discussing and carefully considering options need not cost much, at this stage.
Are you trying to say that BU and BFC should not do so?
Are you able to guarantee that Lionel Road will definately materialise ?
Or is it simply that you again resent someone expressing a different opinion to yourself ?

A feasability into different sites across the Borough has been done. This resulted in Lionel Road being the prefered choice. By some way I should add. If Lionel Road does not work we would be putting efforts into less favourable sites that are less likely to happen.

Therefore I am pleased that all of our minimal resources are being used to make sure Lionel Road does happen.

 

[GEOFFBEE]

You failed to answer my question. WHO is going to look at other sites, have talks, have discussions and carefully consider options. And how are they going to do all of that without disrupting the carefully built alliances of stakeholders that has been constructed in order to progress Lionel Road?

You can have a different opinion, but you need to be able to justify its relative merits.

We have BFC and BU board directors, plus others who help, in various ways.
I have, in the past, done a certain amount towards this myself.At no cost to the club.
I am not proposing that we disrupt our 'carefully built alliance of stakeholders'.I am ,however ,strongly recommending that BFC and BU bear in mind the possibilty( however unpalatable that may be) that, for various reasons, some of which may be beyond our control, Lionel Road could fail to materialise.
If, however, you can guarantee that all the funding will materialise, politicians will not change their minds, residents near Lionel Road and the Chiswick Roundabout will not oppose the scheme, neither the Council nor the Government will change hands, and that Barratts will overcome the huge difficulties in the property and financial markets, then I will agree with you.
Until then, I still think it wise to consider other options.

 

[Banana]

We have BFC and BU board directors, plus others who help, in various ways.
I have, in the past, done a certain amount towards this myself.At no cost to the club.
I am not proposing that we disrupt our 'carefully built alliance of stakeholders'.I am ,however ,strongly recommending that BFC and BU bear in mind the possibilty( however unpalatable that may be) that, for various reasons, some of which may be beyond our control, Lionel Road could fail to materialise.
If, however, you can guarantee that all the funding will materialise, politicians will not change their minds, residents near Lionel Road and the Chiswick Roundabout will not oppose the scheme, neither the Council nor the Government will change hands, and that Barratts will overcome the huge difficulties in the property and financial markets, then I will agree with you.
Until then, I still think it wise to consider other options.

I will ask again. . WHO *specifically* is going to look at other sites, have talks, have discussions and carefully consider options. And how are they going to do all of that without disrupting the carefully built alliances of stakeholders that has been constructed in order to progress Lionel Road?

 

[GEOFFBEE]

A feasability into different sites across the Borough has been done. This resulted in Lionel Road being the prefered choice. By some way I should add. If Lionel Road does not work we would be putting efforts into less favourable sites that are less likely to happen.

Therefore I am pleased that all of our minimal resources are being used to make sure Lionel Road does happen.

Thanks, Luke.
It is just that some of us are still worried about what will happen if, despite all good intentions, Lionel Road does not materialise.
I am not arguing against the desirability of Lionel Road.And I do understand our resources are limited.
I am just anxious for the club to avoid being 'up the creek without a paddle' in, say three to five years time.
By then, other options may no longer be open to us...

 

[Banana]

We are up the creek with one broken paddle and the rest of the crew are whittling away at some wood to make another paddle. Under these circumstances you do not send the whittlers to search in the woods for another paddle (unless you are feeling very very very very very lucky!)

 

[Owlsmoor_Bee]

We have BFC and BU board directors, plus others who help, in various ways.
I have, in the past, done a certain amount towards this myself.At no cost to the club.
I am not proposing that we disrupt our 'carefully built alliance of stakeholders'.I am ,however ,strongly recommending that BFC and BU bear in mind the possibilty( however unpalatable that may be) that, for various reasons, some of which may be beyond our control, Lionel Road could fail to materialise.If, however, you can guarantee that all the funding will materialise, politicians will not change their minds, residents near Lionel Road and the Chiswick Roundabout will not oppose the scheme, neither the Council nor the Government will change hands, and that Barratts will overcome the huge difficulties in the property and financial markets, then I will agree with you.
Until then, I still think it wise to consider other options.

Geoff, I understand the point you're making, but let's not kid ourselves, BFC and BU will all be acutely aware that Lionel Road could fail to materialise.

 

[homelessbee]

On a related note, I see from my office window that there are quite a few bulldozers working on the site at the moment. Is that anything to do with us?

 

[Banana]

On a related note, I see from my office window that there are quite a few bulldozers working on the site at the moment. Is that anything to do with us?

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[GEOFFBEE]

I will ask again. . WHO *specifically* is going to look at other sites, have talks, have discussions and carefully consider options. And how are they going to do all of that without disrupting the carefully built alliances of stakeholders that has been constructed in order to progress Lionel Road?

It is not up to me.This would be for the board members of BFC and BU to decide.
Most of them have extensive business experience, some have property development experience, and, no doubt, some have gained quite a bit of related experience over the past few years.We also have some enthusiastic new guys on the BU, and ,possibly, the BFC board.
I fully appreciate that time, and resources, are at a premium, and that we do not wish to disrupt our strategic relationships but I nevertheless firmly believe that we must still consider other options.Just in case.
We ignore that at our peril..

 

[GEOFFBEE]

We are up the creek with one broken paddle and the rest of the crew are whittling away at some wood to make another paddle. Under these circumstances you do not send the whittlers to search in the woods for another paddle (unless you are feeling very very very very very lucky!)

Quite right.
Far better to have had the foresight to take a 'spare paddle' in the first place !

 

[Banana]

It is not up to me.This would be for the board members of BFC and BU to decide.
Most of them have extensive business experience, some have property development experience, and, no doubt, some have gained quite a bit of related experience over the past few years.

Correct.

However, their opinion is not the same as yours!

 

[GEOFFBEE]

Geoff, I understand the point you're making, but let's not kid ourselves, BFC and BU will all be acutely aware that Lionel Road could fail to materialise.

Yes, I imagine they are.
That is why I find it baffling that some folk are getting so upset that I am suggesting it makes good sense for them to still consider alternative options.Just in case...
Hopefully, BFC and BU are already doing so.
Anyway, let us hope the 'Lionel Road' dream does come true.

 

[GEOFFBEE]

Correct.

However, their opinion is not the same as yours!

Are you, therefore, implying that you know for fact that all the board members of BFC and BU are happy not to consider any other options at all?
And, therefore , are content to let the club's future rest entirely on the hope that Lionel Road does materialise?
If so, they are gonna be really popular in about five or six years time if it does not materialise...

 

[Harry Butler]

Are you, therefore, implying that you know for fact that all the board members of BFC and BU are happy not to consider any other options at all?
And, therefore , are content to let the club's future rest entirely on the hope that Lionel Road does materialise?
If so, they are gonna be really popular in about five or six years time if it does not materialise...

Wrong. This would way Imply that they are popular now!

 

[jlove]

It seems to me that we are at a stage where I'd prefer the Lionel Road Team to focus on making that happen rather that continuously assessing all possibilities for alternatives... after all, isn't that what the GPG is for? Wherever the site, there is a constant process of aligning all the interested parties; the developers; LBH; GLA; the local residents; hoteliers; etc, which must be like herding cats. You can't do more than one at a time.

 

[GEOFFBEE]

It seems to me that we are at a stage where I'd prefer the Lionel Road Team to focus on making that happen rather that continuously assessing all possibilities for alternatives... after all, isn't that what the GPG is for? Wherever the site, there is a constant process of aligning all the interested parties; the developers; LBH; GLA; the local residents; hoteliers; etc, which must be like herding cats. You can't do more than one at a time.

I agree that it is wise for 'The Lionel Road team' to be focussing much attention on that project, and ,yes, I reckon it could well be like 'herding cats'!
It is just that I also believe it would be wise for the club, and BU, to still seriously bear in mind the possibility that some of the vital elements of that project could hit insurmountable problems,possibly beyond their control.If that happens, then we would all be grateful that the club , and BU , had the foresight to have had other alternatives under careful consideration.
I believe it is prudent for any business to give time and thought to contingency arrangements, especially on a project that is so vital to its future, and, indeed, it's survival.
I appreciate that some others on here do not share my concerns on this, and I actually hope my worries prove unfounded !
Anyway, let us hope all works out well on Lionel Road, and that the club can have a great future.

 

[Banana]

What insurmountable events are you specifically worried about that will affect Lionel Road but not any other site?

 

[wanderer paul]

why don't those who seem to want Plans B, C and D etc etc offer their services to BU, to look for alternative sites? or are you the ones who complain and offer no help?