Harry Butler
Member
New Stadium Progress
Oh big boys here at last lord herb i hope you both get stands named after you.What was the gate today for a top of the table clash? How many do we need through to break even?
New Stadium Progress
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Hullbee
Wash your hands you filthy animals
New Stadium Progress
Nope because Lionel Road will have to be built before GP is developed (as there is no way we will be ground sharing with bees United in charge). As LR is not likely to be built in the next 5 years I dont think Griffin Park will be worth less.
Hullbee
Wash your hands you filthy animals
New Stadium Progress
The should put adverts on the hoarding... They would make a lot more money in advertising revenue also so high level adverts for the elevated section I understand they sell the advertisment space for a substantial amount of money
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
New Stadium Progress
Harry. Please. Be sensible here. Complaining is pointless unless you're gonna offer something useful as an alternative. If you don't see any point to building Lionel Road, what would your alternative solution be? Stay at GP with 4k crowds until we have to fold? Or do you have a great plan for attracting new crowds (or alternative revenue streams)? If you have an idea, i'm sure BU would love to hear it! But remember, Target 10,000 didn't go so well, so it'd have to be a bloody good idea.
Harry Butler
Member
New Stadium Progress
I'm shocked that no one even thinks that nothing at all can go wrong with this ambitious new dawning and that all our problems (All caused by previous managements and Ron )will all go away.Ask banana how much money Brentford have lost since bees utd took hold.Revenue streams my bollox.
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
New Stadium Progress
of course we're worried, but i think people are trying to think positive and hope it all works out 
because, for the 3rd time, what's the alternative? please be constructive with your criticism, otherwise it just comes across as whining
because, for the 3rd time, what's the alternative? please be constructive with your criticism, otherwise it just comes across as whining
New Stadium Progress
Harry - everyone knows we are skint and losing big dosh every year - at least under BU it is now out in the open.
GP is unsuitable for our needs - it's an albatross around our necks
Our ONLY hope if flog the dump and use the cash on Lionel Rd and to get out of debt a bit to get the interest payments down - get it?
What do you want to do? stay at GP and lose 500,000 quid each year until we do go tits up?
It's a no brainer - move or die - simple
GP is unsuitable for our needs - it's an albatross around our necks
Our ONLY hope if flog the dump and use the cash on Lionel Rd and to get out of debt a bit to get the interest payments down - get it?
What do you want to do? stay at GP and lose 500,000 quid each year until we do go tits up?
It's a no brainer - move or die - simple
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Harry Butler
Member
Harry Butler
Member
New Stadium Progress
of course we're worried, but i think people are trying to think positive and hope it all works out
because, for the 3rd time, what's the alternative? please be constructive with your criticism, otherwise it just comes across as whining
"Hope it all works out" I feel better already!
Hang on......this is a wind up
I'v bit haven't i?
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
New Stadium Progress
4th time now. Harry, what do you suggest we do instead? sit around whining about any plan until we've lost so much money that we have to fold? or do you have a masterplan?
jlove
Well-known member
New Stadium Progress
OK, Harry, how about this for a positive alternative:
What do you think?
- Sell our rights to the Lionel Road site; probably not worth a lot without the 'community stadium' status but Fulham or QPR may bite.
- Sell all the players still in contract; not many long-term contracts so not worth a lot.
- Sell Griffin Park for re-development.
- Auction off all the fixtures and fittings to the fans.
- Pay off the debtors
- Divvy up the resulting proceeds between all members of BU who were members as of 1 Jan 2007.
What do you think?
Chorlton Bee
Active member
New Stadium Progress
a) £x
b) Barratts
Page15 of this will help
http://www.kdwebserver.co.uk/~brentfor/images/uploads/BFC_LRLG_081110.pdf
Owlsmoor_Bee
Moderator
blunstone
Active member
New Stadium Progress
sorry it is not that simple. if only it was!
why would we make a profit in a new stadium? 4,000 - 6,000 people would rattle about in a much bigger ground. and fans go to watch football not cheer a ground.
and if you think by selling GP and paying for a new ground we will clear our debts you don't understand how these things work.
ask arsenal. they had no debts to speak of. they have now!
i realise this upsets some of you --- but we are a very, very small club swimming against the tide in a very serious economic meltdown.
(but with a half decent manager and squad!)
jlove
Well-known member
New Stadium Progress
I do think that there is a complete lack of understanding of the basic principles of the economics of running a sports stadium; the gate money for BFC matches should be incremental income and not core funding for the premises.
rebus
On my final warning
New Stadium Progress
This is not my area of expertise but I suspect we would have needed average crowds of at least 7,000 to "break even" this season.
Without the assistance of loans from Matthew Benham and various BFC directors the club would not be starting in the Football League this season.
King Bee
Former BU board member, working in pharma land
New Stadium Progress
Think the Arsenal situation is sustainable though. Arsenal had about £318m of debt as at 31 May 2008 which was being financed at an average rate of interest of about 5.3% i.e ~£17m per annum. Interest cover was just under 3x so you see while it may seem quite a large nominal figure, the business plan more than covers the debt. Plus borrowing rates are much lower now. The nominal debt figure will be paid down through property sales so the question is whether they’ll be able to sell the remaining units at the Highbury Square development site (as at May, 598 of the 680 units in development were at the point of exchange of contract – some of these may have fallen through).
jlove said:
I don't think anyone on the BU or LR board believes we can rely solely on Brentford gate receipt income to make the stadium business plan work. The new stadium offers us 1) a refinancing opportunity - it will attract new investment and revalue our asset base which will give us a bit more breathing spare re capacity to borrow 2) provide additional revenue streams through non-football related income e.g. concerts, other sports events, hotel rental income etc.
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
New Stadium Progress
Most economic commentators seem to be going for an end to this current recession towards the end of 2009 and either a return to low economic growth or a plateau for a period from 2010. That period ties in with the current Lionel Road schedule for a completion of the planning process by the end of 2009 and a reassessment of the project viability in early 2010.
Peter Murphy of Barratts has assessed the total retail value of the project comprising approximately 1,000 residential units at Lionel Road and Griffin park, commercial developments, a new football stadium and council leisure development at around £500m.
In his presentation, he has indicated that the Barratt’s first committed to entering into this development partnership when average house/flat prices for the development were expected to be in the region of £250k to £300k. While average prices peaked at close to £350k and have since come down they are still (for now) above the level at which the project was originally considered potentially viable.
The debts that BFC/BU will likely seek to retire as part of this £500m development project are principally as follows (subject to rollovers/refinancing in the interim)
Bank £0.5m
Council £0.5m
M. Benham £4.5m
BFC directors £0.7m
--------
£6.2m
New borrowings from
2009 to completion ?
---------
Total 3rd party debt
@ time of completion
----------
Bottom line results for the club over the past ten years have been as follows:
Losses (£’000s)
1999 (955)
2000 (946)
2001 (1834)
2002 (1177)
2003 ( 177)
2004 (118)
2005 (75)
2006 (517)
2007 (60)
2008 (500)
While the budgeted loss for this season has been quoted by BIAS to be £650,000, with attendances currently running above the stated budget level of 4225 and over £200k coming in from league and cup TV money and FA prize income, hopefully we will see losses below £500k for the current year.
The club generally has a better prospect of containing losses to a more sustainable level in League one with higher attendances in that division and substantial increases in League distribution income (including the new TV deal) and premiership solidarity payments. It seems to me there is every reason to expect that we will finish somewhere in the top seven this season and if not promoted automatically at least in with a shout through the play-offs.
A new stadium is essential. Like Woolworth’s, it is a case of modernise and change or face continuing long term decline – recession or no recession.
Peter Murphy of Barratts has assessed the total retail value of the project comprising approximately 1,000 residential units at Lionel Road and Griffin park, commercial developments, a new football stadium and council leisure development at around £500m.
In his presentation, he has indicated that the Barratt’s first committed to entering into this development partnership when average house/flat prices for the development were expected to be in the region of £250k to £300k. While average prices peaked at close to £350k and have since come down they are still (for now) above the level at which the project was originally considered potentially viable.
The debts that BFC/BU will likely seek to retire as part of this £500m development project are principally as follows (subject to rollovers/refinancing in the interim)
Bank £0.5m
Council £0.5m
M. Benham £4.5m
BFC directors £0.7m
--------
£6.2m
New borrowings from
2009 to completion ?
---------
Total 3rd party debt
@ time of completion
----------
Bottom line results for the club over the past ten years have been as follows:
Losses (£’000s)
1999 (955)
2000 (946)
2001 (1834)
2002 (1177)
2003 ( 177)
2004 (118)
2005 (75)
2006 (517)
2007 (60)
2008 (500)
While the budgeted loss for this season has been quoted by BIAS to be £650,000, with attendances currently running above the stated budget level of 4225 and over £200k coming in from league and cup TV money and FA prize income, hopefully we will see losses below £500k for the current year.
The club generally has a better prospect of containing losses to a more sustainable level in League one with higher attendances in that division and substantial increases in League distribution income (including the new TV deal) and premiership solidarity payments. It seems to me there is every reason to expect that we will finish somewhere in the top seven this season and if not promoted automatically at least in with a shout through the play-offs.
A new stadium is essential. Like Woolworth’s, it is a case of modernise and change or face continuing long term decline – recession or no recession.
New Stadium Progress
This is very interesting info, just wondered why no-one has communicated this sort of valuable info to the fans in the past?
exiledbee
Active member
New Stadium Progress
As we already have the real estate, was redveloping the current ground out of the question? It used to hold rather a lot more than today, didn't it? Not sure I like the idea of the club not owning the ground either.
Carri Bee Un
The Most Esteemed and Very Reverend
New Stadium Progress
The Barratt's presentation certainly seems pretty upbeat for a company that's not got the sunniest times ahead of it. Things could get much much sh*ttier and I am less and less sure that there are good times ahead again at the end of 2009. I'm still unclear as to what the clubs balance sheet is projected to look like once we're in lionel road, can anyone point me in the right direction?.
It's all great having Barratts with all the risk and reward but all this jolly upbeatness cannot disguise the fact that there is surely some significant uncertainty as to barratts ability to fund multiple projects like this one :shrug: They may well fall back to their core business of selling licorice at any point :yes: What's our risk at any point if Bertie goes bust?
It's all great having Barratts with all the risk and reward but all this jolly upbeatness cannot disguise the fact that there is surely some significant uncertainty as to barratts ability to fund multiple projects like this one :shrug: They may well fall back to their core business of selling licorice at any point :yes: What's our risk at any point if Bertie goes bust?
New Stadium Progress
Thank you, King Bee, and Joe.
Your comments, and information, are greatly welcome.
And your work on behalf of the club is appreciated.
My big worries are that, if the planning consents are not given and/or Barratts cannot overcome the significant financial hurdles, what happens to BFC then?
Do we still have a viable 'plan B' and, hopefully, 'plans C, D and E' etc?
I have raised these concerns with BU and the club previously.
I would hate to see the Lionel Road project fail, only to find that BFC does not have any workable alternative.
Your comments, and information, are greatly welcome.
And your work on behalf of the club is appreciated.
My big worries are that, if the planning consents are not given and/or Barratts cannot overcome the significant financial hurdles, what happens to BFC then?
Do we still have a viable 'plan B' and, hopefully, 'plans C, D and E' etc?
I have raised these concerns with BU and the club previously.
I would hate to see the Lionel Road project fail, only to find that BFC does not have any workable alternative.
rebus
On my final warning
New Stadium Progress
These figures have been communicated before but some of Joe's information is incorrect as he isn't in a position to predict what debts BU or BFC are likely to "retire".
Brian Mason
Member
New Stadium Progress
Care to expand on this? Are you suggesting some loans the club currently owes will be written off?
rebus
On my final warning
New Stadium Progress
I was commenting on Joe's choice of words. Nothing can be ruled in or out at this stage.
Harry Butler
Member
New Stadium Progress
Still when you think about it If staying at G.P will in the end lead to th club being wound up,and lets agree football is a rare bird in this respect as leeds,Luton and many others would have been wound up had they not been football clubs.So if you have a go at restucturing at a spanking new stadium which as you know i think is doomed to fail whats the difference between going bust to the tune of 10-15 mill or 25-40 mill? Its not my money and i won't be one of the poor ****ers not getting paid!
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
New Stadium Progress
i'm paraphrasing, but it appears to be "i have no decent alternative to a new stadium, so i'm complaining about nothing - so let's have fun!"
we've won him over
we've won him over
Paul USA
Well-known member
New Stadium Progress
He does make sense - If a regular company announced results that Leeds, Luton, many others had announced for years then they would have gone to the wall. Football Clubs do seem to have the knack of "Hanging in there" when common business sense dictates it is time to close the shop or the creditors dictate it.
Owlsmoor_Bee
Moderator
New Stadium Progress
I would imagine it's because no creditor wants to be one first one responsible for sending a major league club to the wall. If and when one club goes under, I'm sure you'd see several more follow suit as that "business taboo" for want of a better phrase would have been broken.
SpiderBee
Surrey Wyvern
New Stadium Progress
But not for much longer.
I confidently predict that at least one football league club will go bust before the start of next season!
The experiences of clubs like Scarborough, Telford and Halifax recently are about to hit the football league.
Clubs that have no chance of clearing mounting debts so they will fold and reform lower down the pyramid.
Watch this space.
kevalutonbee
Well-known member
New Stadium Progress
For years now HMRC have been threatening to play hard ball with clubs in admin. Recently (ie Luton) they have played reasonably hard and then caved in.
I suspect the occasion that they decide to play hard ball for the long game rather than the short one SpiderBee's prediction will come true
I suspect the occasion that they decide to play hard ball for the long game rather than the short one SpiderBee's prediction will come true
Harry Butler
Member
New Stadium Progress
Your on the money. If Roman had bought Leeds or Spurts then Chelsea would be eerrr be where Leeds are now. Make no mistake.But not for much longer.
I confidently predict that at least one football league club will go bust before the start of next season!
The experiences of clubs like Scarborough, Telford and Halifax recently are about to hit the football league.
Clubs that have no chance of clearing mounting debts so they will fold and reform lower down the pyramid.
Watch this space.
Harry Butler
Member
New Stadium Progress
p.s And we are all freinds again except Rovert63 who must be tracked down and killed!
New Stadium Progress
How did HMRC cave in with Luton? They refused the CVA, which gave the FL the opportunity if they wished to kick Luton, Rotherham and Bournemouth out of the League.
If anything it was the FL who caved in, as they enforced 17-20 point deductions when they could have kicked all 3 out of the league.
Also Luton asked HMRC what would happen if they offered to pay HMRC 100p in the pound and were told by HMRC that they would still turn down the CVA , on the grounds that they won't pass any Football Club's CVA's unless the rule is changed which gives preferential status to football creditors.
If anything it was the FL who caved in, as they enforced 17-20 point deductions when they could have kicked all 3 out of the league.
Also Luton asked HMRC what would happen if they offered to pay HMRC 100p in the pound and were told by HMRC that they would still turn down the CVA , on the grounds that they won't pass any Football Club's CVA's unless the rule is changed which gives preferential status to football creditors.
Owlsmoor_Bee
Moderator
New Stadium Progress
Are you sure about your last paragraph ? I find it a little odd that HMRC would've turned down receiving all monies due to them on a point of principle. I assume Luton's question was a hypothetical one anyway as if they'd agreed to pay out 100p in the pound to HMRC then they would've been obligated to pay 100p in the pound to all other creditors to prevent HMRC from becoming a preferred creditor.
kevalutonbee
Well-known member
New Stadium Progress
I thought unless the CVA was agreed you could not exit admin so are they still in admin then?
Owlsmoor_Bee
Moderator
New Stadium Progress
You can exit administration without agreeing a CVA, but I understand that it's the Football League's stipulation that you mustn't exit administration without having agreed a CVA. Bournemouth's, Rotherham's and Luton's failure to adhere to that stipulation is what (in part) resulted in the hefty points deductions.
rebus
On my final warning
New Stadium Progress
I did hear that they turned it down, yes. That's £2.5 million of taxpayers money as well.
Owlsmoor_Bee
Moderator
New Stadium Progress
New Stadium Progress
Can I report this post as a direct threat on my life? No smillies - nothing - I'm scared to take my slippers off in case i have to run for my life
Who was it I'm supposed to report it to ? I'm all flustered now
Mr Tree
bigger than massive
New Stadium Progress
That's astonishing. Talk about cutting your nose to spite your face.
Seems like the IR hates Luton as much as everyone else..
Harry Butler
Member
New Stadium Progress
Geoff Bee,
The Bees United Annual Report comments on the areas that the club is seeking to address on an ongoing basis:
1.Average gates have normally been around 4400 to 5600 in Leagues one and two. The highs in recent years have been 6700+ under Coppell and Allen. Season tickets reached 2600 in 2006-07, dropped to 2000 in 2007-08 following relegation and I think were around 1600 this season. The club Chairman has quoted a target of 2000 as what the club would like to see in the division, so perhaps we will see some further marketing initiatives for next season, hopefully aided by promotion to League One. The £20 family ticket has been the principal initiative pursued this season.
2.Increasing revenue - big increases in commercial revenue have, in the past, come mainly from major sponsorship deals i.e. shirt sponsorships, roof advertising and stand naming rights.
3.Reduce the playing budget – has to be balanced with the anticipated effect on competitiveness and the consequences of any expected drop off in gate receipts prospects for cup runs and transfer fees.
4.Reduce the off the pitch costs – there may possibly be some reductions in bank interest costs,. depreciation and general overheads. The BU annual report comments as follows – “Off the pitch the task is as great as ever, with much of the cost base being very difficult to tackle. “
5.Borrow money against the value of Griffin Park, or raise cash as equity (shares), to fund the shortfall. The 2007 accounts reflect the last valuation of £10m for Griffin Park. There is somewhere around £6m or so of external group debt secured against the property and a further £2.5m or so of inter-company debt i.e. Griffin Park Stadium loan of £1.3m and BU loan notes and loans sourced from fundraising. BFC’s articles of incorporation were amended in 2007 to restrict the clubs borrowings and any of its subsidiaries to £9m in total. Some of the inter-company and/or external debt could conceivably be converted to equity in the future or otherwise addressed.