Should Scott Go?

[TonkTony]

Old Andy should of get better van insurance according to page 82 of today's Sun...

I think he should of get a new one

 

[chippendale]

Probably and with English as his second language.

Beam me up scotty

 

[love and mercy]

I think he should stay now.
He has had the kick up the arse he has deserved now lets move on

 

[hatfieldbee]

Why is this thread still open? The debate has virtually blown itself out (for now), and I'm sure another similar thread would be opened if need be later on. This is at least the 3rd incarnation of the debate in any case!

 

[Braemar's Northoltian Bees]

I think he should stay now.
He has had the kick up the arse he has deserved now lets move on

pony

Why is this thread still open? The debate has virtually blown itself out (for now), and I'm sure another similar thread would be opened if need be later on. This is at least the 3rd incarnation of the debate in any case!

exactly,this thread should never have started......we arent even half way through the season yet

 

[robBEEh]

We'll need it next Saturday at 5pm after we've beaten Notts County who were rubbish anyway and the worst team ever seen at Griffin Park well they must be if Brentford scored seven and the football was the biggest load of crap ever and no wonder supporters left after the match and my two mates who usually watch Arsenal said how do you put up with that rubbish every week and I'm definitely not renewing my season ticket if that Andy Scott is still manager and anyway he's a Fulham supporter my mate knows his uncle and he told me that and what's the point that's what I say 'cos the board doesn't have any ambition it's a fact I'm telling you my mate in the Griffin told me that he heard it while he was in there from a bloke who'd been at the BU AGM.....God what a load of tossers no wonder we're at the bottom of League Two well that's where we should be playing the rubbish we do and furthermore.........

The longest sentence EVER in the history of sentences. The proof - we are in serious trouble :thetruth:

 

[sonofabee]

We'll need it next Saturday at 5pm after we've beaten Notts County who were rubbish anyway and the worst team ever seen at Griffin Park well they must be if Brentford scored seven and the football was the biggest load of crap ever and no wonder supporters left after the match and my two mates who usually watch Arsenal said how do you put up with that rubbish every week and I'm definitely not renewing my season ticket if that Andy Scott is still manager and anyway he's a Fulham supporter my mate knows his uncle and he told me that and what's the point that's what I say 'cos the board doesn't have any ambition it's a fact I'm telling you my mate in the Griffin told me that he heard it while he was in there from a bloke who'd been at the BU AGM.....God what a load of tossers no wonder we're at the bottom of League Two well that's where we should be playing the rubbish we do and furthermore.........

abee you should be above this, don't get drawn into unfunny, sarcastic posts and sink to others level

 

[Idaho Bee]

abee you should be above this, don't get drawn into unfunny, sarcastic posts and sink to others level

unfunny??? Sarcastic yes, unfunny no.

 

[vcmazz]

unfunny??? Sarcastic yes, unfunny no.

 

[grepo]

Without Scott I think we would be emulating Luton and possibly Halifax (my local side). Long live Scott and long may he remain at our helm.

 

[vcmazz]

Without Scott I think we would be emulating Luton and possibly Halifax (my local side). Long live Scott and long may he remain at our helm.

Depends who we were 'with'. Overall I agree he's done a pretty sound job but surely you're not suggesting Scott is the only person in the world who was capable of getting out of the 4th Division and into the middle of the 3rd?

 

[Braemar's Northoltian Bees]

Depends who we were 'with'. Overall I agree he's done a pretty sound job but surely you're not suggesting Scott is the only person in the world who was capable of getting out of the 4th Division and into the middle of the 3rd?

no.But what he has done for us since his appointment is greatly undervalued by quite a few on here.
This season is the first where he's been given a good budget,which he did get increased,so expectations are higher,mine included,but to want instant success can be a bit narrow minded and doesnt always happen.we are not even midway through the season,more than in reach of the right end of the table,and people are going mental and wanting him out,im not saying he is or isnt the man for the job,fact is it shouldnt even be a discussion yet,hes done a great job so far,is entitled to have his go

 

[wanderer paul]

no.But what he has done for us since his appointment is greatly undervalued by quite a few on here.
This season is the first where he's been given a good budget,which he did get increased,so expectations are higher,mine included,but to want instant success can be a bit narrow minded and doesnt always happen.we are not even midway through the season,more than in reach of the right end of the table,and people are going mental and wanting him out,im not saying he is or isnt the man for the job,fact is it shouldnt even be a discussion yet,hes done a great job so far,is entitled to have his go

The fans are voting with their feet. :sad: ST No shows. :sad: Less pay on the door. :sad: He's taking us backwards with his style of play. But after a few pointers from the GPG :bound: we're playing a bit more footy and less hoof. but more than likely the guvnor got a kick up the arse

 

[vcmazz]

The fans are voting with their feet. :sad: ST No shows. :sad: Less pay on the door. :sad: He's taking us backwards with his style of play. But after a few pointers from the GPG :bound: we're playing a bit more footy and less hoof. but more than likely the guvnor got a kick up the arse

I reckon bee4's had a word in his shell-like .

 

[Braemar's Northoltian Bees]

The fans are voting with their feet. :sad: ST No shows. :sad: Less pay on the door. :sad: He's taking us backwards with his style of play. But after a few pointers from the GPG :bound: we're playing a bit more footy and less hoof. but more than likely the guvnor got a kick up the arse

but our gates have been poor for a long time,and those "regulars" who are voting with their feet so early into this new era,can we call it that?,are wrong,things dont always happen over night,wheres the patience,yes this season has been inconsistant SO FAR,seasons not even halfway yet, and some recent performances have been truly awful,but the last 2 games show what we are capable of,aswell as some early on.And if we keep this run up with good footballing performances,even right through to the end,our gates wont change anyway because ours dont.for those voting with their feet so early after the 2 and a half seasons prior need to be a bit more realisitc with our current position,things are not looking too bad at all

 

[beebopalula]

no.But what he has done for us since his appointment is greatly undervalued by quite a few on here.
This season is the first where he's been given a good budget,which he did get increased,so expectations are higher,mine included,but to want instant success can be a bit narrow minded and doesnt always happen.we are not even midway through the season,more than in reach of the right end of the table,and people are going mental and wanting him out,im not saying he is or isnt the man for the job,fact is it shouldnt even be a discussion yet,hes done a great job so far,is entitled to have his go

Mine's a 50 year perspective on AS having watched the Bees for that period. Yes he did well to get us up. However, at the mo, he is like a raft of managers who have got us to a middling League 1 position. Some have done a lot better. Some have done a lot worse. But he's no great shakes in League 1. The difference is that in that time, most managers have struggled with resources and some have played a more entertaining style. The only time we've had a bit of cash injected was under Lange and then under the antichrist who shafted us. I'm just hoping that the tactical changes enforced by injury have delivered a light bulb moment for AS. Only time will tell on that one.What concerns me most is our dwindling support and AS should ask himself why this is the case despite the recent results which he quotes.A lot of folk say that it's a results industry. Well they are right and wrong as if it was purely results, we'd have more at the gate.
I'm hoping we've turned the corner tactics wise and perversely, I'd like to see Weston take time with his recovery just in case we revert to the old tactics.

 

[scruff puppy pup]

but our gates have been poor for a long time,and those "regulars" who are voting with their feet so early into this new era,can we call it that?,are wrong,things dont always happen over night,wheres the patience,yes this season has been inconsistant SO FAR,seasons not even halfway yet, and some recent performances have been truly awful,but the last 2 games show what we are capable of,aswell as some early on.And if we keep this run up with good footballing performances,even right through to the end,our gates wont change anyway because ours dont.for those voting with their feet so early after the 2 and a half seasons prior need to be a bit more realisitc with our current position,things are not looking too bad at all

If we can start playing at home like we have away, they might return, but I can't up to now blame them for leaving.
If our home form continues for the remainder of the season as it is currently, then we will not make the play-offs in what is an at-best average Division One.
He's no Owen Coyle, nor Ian Holloway, nor Eddie Howe. I would love to see a manager who plays their kind of football and puts out a team that really looks to play and score. I'm not convinced AS has a particularly good eye for players.

 

[scruff puppy pup]

Mine's a 50 year perspective on AS having watched the Bees for that period. Yes he did well to get us up. However, at the mo, he is like a raft of managers who have got us to a middling League 1 position. Some have done a lot better. Some have done a lot worse. But he's no great shakes in League 1. The difference is that in that time, most managers have struggled with resources and some have played a more entertaining style. The only time we've had a bit of cash injected was under Lange and then under the antichrist who shafted us. I'm just hoping that the tactical changes enforced by injury have delivered a light bulb moment for AS. Only time will tell on that one.What concerns me most is our dwindling support and AS should ask himself why this is the case despite the recent results which he quotes.A lot of folk say that it's a results industry. Well they are right and wrong as if it was purely results, we'd have more at the gate.
I'm hoping we've turned the corner tactics wise and perversely, I'd like to see Weston take time with his recovery just in case we revert to the old tactics.

.....yeah, exactly. Nice post.
I think you're saying similar to myself, in different words.

 

[Braemar's Northoltian Bees]

Mine's a 50 year perspective on AS having watched the Bees for that period. Yes he did well to get us up. However, at the mo, he is like a raft of managers who have got us to a middling League 1 position. Some have done a lot better. Some have done a lot worse. But he's no great shakes in League 1. The difference is that in that time, most managers have struggled with resources and some have played a more entertaining style. The only time we've had a bit of cash injected was under Lange and then under the antichrist who shafted us. I'm just hoping that the tactical changes enforced by injury have delivered a light bulb moment for AS. Only time will tell on that one.What concerns me most is our dwindling support and AS should ask himself why this is the case despite the recent results which he quotes.A lot of folk say that it's a results industry. Well they are right and wrong as if it was purely results, we'd have more at the gate.
I'm hoping we've turned the corner tactics wise and perversely, I'd like to see Weston take time with his recovery just in case we revert to the old tactics.

its still early for everything youve mentioned
middling league 1 position ? its late november and 4 points off what is our end target,where we want to be.the quality/entertainment side has been so up and down SO FAR but it hasnt all been such a downer,with performances in the cup and in a fair few league games,positive signs that warrant loyalty and patience.i believe its a results industry but believe this side can plat footie aswell as they have in the last 2 games,and on/off throughout so far.
When we do well our gates dont shoot up dramatically,period,it gets said alot "when we do well our gates go up"but they dont really.
those who have walked at this point i think is almost shameful if they are were regular before,think maybe getting above stations a bit and way too early,ive found it very frustrating at times and was very downhearted at aldershot.ive even questioned tactics/subs and changes but that happens with any manager.when weston is fit again,he cant honeslty go back to the long ball crap after recent good dispalys,though there are time for it,dirty,horrible footie play to get results,its football,good and bad wins games.BUt weston should fit in fine with the current style,probably better and we wouldnt have to rely on him too much either

 

[beebopalula]

its still early for everything youve mentioned
middling league 1 position ? its late november and 4 points off what is our end target,where we want to be.the quality/entertainment side has been so up and down SO FAR but it hasnt all been such a downer,with performances in the cup and in a fair few league games,positive signs that warrant loyalty and patience.i believe its a results industry but believe this side can plat footie aswell as they have in the last 2 games,and on/off throughout so far.
When we do well our gates dont shoot up dramatically,period,it gets said alot "when we do well our gates go up"but they dont really.
those who have walked at this point i think is almost shameful if they are were regular before,think maybe getting above stations a bit and way too early,ive found it very frustrating at times and was very downhearted at aldershot.ive even questioned tactics/subs and changes but that happens with any manager.when weston is fit again,he cant honeslty go back to the long ball crap after recent good dispalys,though there are time for it,dirty,horrible footie play to get results,its football,good and bad wins games.BUt weston should fit in fine with the current style,probably better and we wouldnt have to rely on him too much either

Northoltian I hope you're right that ' he can't go back to the long ball crap'. Why have I got a bad feeling about that?

 

[NorthamptonBee]

Northoltian I hope you're right that ' he can't go back to the long ball crap'. Why have I got a bad feeling about that?

Now if you were a mod you could read my PMs, you'll find sh*tloads about the book with thanks and good vibes to most, however there are loads from people who I know are regulars saying that they won't be there next week as they can't do the boredom anymore. I actually find that sad and not trying to point score, Scott has done good things but he's taken away soem of the love of following Brentford with his boring football.

 

[Braemar's Northoltian Bees]

Northoltian I hope you're right that ' he can't go back to the long ball crap'. Why have I got a bad feeling about that?

because of the inconsitancey we've watched so far.but we've had a good run of results with some bad performances last month,all signs of a good team in the making. the last 2games weve put in 2 very good performances getting 6 points so hopefully we have turned to corner,if we have,with so long of the season left though there is bound to be another bad patch,or even 2 where those who cant wait to get on the domm n gloom bandwagon will start again

 

[hairman]

Why is this thread still open? The debate has virtually blown itself out (for now), and I'm sure another similar thread would be opened if need be later on. This is at least the 3rd incarnation of the debate in any case!

Agreed. Let's turn our attention to giving Peter Gilham a roughing up. I heard from a very reliable source that he's nasty to our young, elderly and disabled supporters. He's only with the club to further his career ambitions (allegedly)and is trousering a huge wedge plus perks while 'working' for the club. Hell, I've even seen him travelling home from Griffin Park in his reserved executive seat on the 267 bus and getting first dabs on the buffet trolley.

 

[Garybaldbee]

The fans are voting with their feet. :sad: ST No shows. :sad: Less pay on the door. :sad: He's taking us backwards with his style of play. But after a few pointers from the GPG :bound: we're playing a bit more footy and less hoof. but more than likely the guvnor got a kick up the arse

Its a similar story around the country. Attendances are falling everywhere. The season ticket holders and most regulars are pretty inured to poor football - we've seen enough of it over the years. I think the recession, the exorbitant cost of admission and a general national dislllusionment with the game are much more likely to be behind the struggle to get people through the turnstiles.

 

[abee]

Its a similar story around the country. Attendances are falling everywhere. The season ticket holders and most regulars are pretty inured to poor football - we've seen enough of it over the years. I think the recession, the exorbitant cost of admission and a general national dislllusionment with the game are much more likely to be behind the struggle to get people through the turnstiles.

I totally agree. In our budget (agreed in June) we took a chainsaw to the pay on the day attendance forecasts because we believed that the recession and the resulting tightening of belts would severely impact on our gates. Personally I'm sick of the football on the tv, tired of the Premiership prima donnas, have no interest in the England team and the cheap caps given away and I have to be emotionally involved to enjoy (or otherwise) a match. I'd rather go and watch the Sunday morning games at my local playing fields for my 'entertainment' if Brentford aren't playing. There's no denying that our cash receipts are down compared to the first nine home games of last season but we don't have any hostages to fortune in our budget, we can offer improved contracts to players (Myles Weston this week) and also strengthen the squad as necessary (Rowan Vine this week) all within the budget.

What I don't have though is any feel for what percentage of our fall in gates is down to the discontent expressed by some on here re the quality of football played at Griffin Park and what is due to the recession and Xmas coming up.

 

[Chopper]

abee what was the average budgeted for this season?

 

[vcmazz]

Personally I'm sick of the football on the tv, tired of the Premiership prima donnas, have no interest in the England team and the cheap caps given away and I have to be emotionally involved to enjoy (or otherwise) a match. I'd rather go and watch the Sunday morning games at my local playing fields for my 'entertainment' if Brentford aren't playing.

Couldn't have put it better myself .

 

[Ken_Hom's_Wok]

The question is, is if you think (regardless of results this season) the club is advancing under Scott. Personally, I think you have to look at the progress we have made in the last three years, the move to academy status, the development of young players (such as Karleigh) the move to sign younger players generally who can be sold on (such as Leon and Sam Wood), the smart moves in the loan market etc.

Yes, results haven't been good, but in the grand scheme of things, I think we're doing well. It's a blip which we'll overcome.

 

[The Pipe]

"those who have walked at this point i think is almost shameful if they are were regular before,think maybe getting above stations a bit" -quote from Braemar's Northoltian Bees

Well that is really firing from the hip and one hell of an insult to a number of supporters who have been attending GP since Moses was a boy. As others have said attending football should be a pleasurable experience however slowly but recently it has been turning into a chore in no small part due to the turgid football that has been served up.

Obviousley the hard times we are all experiencing do not help together with the general depression around football following the World Cup, and no doubt acros the board attendances are probably lower, therefore it is vital to have a product on the pitch that will impact upon the paying customers and make them want to return.

The manager will be judged on results because that is the way it has always been however talking to various other supporters of other clubs I am gaining the impression that there is a shift in perceptions and in fact supporters are now looking for results plus entertainment and whilst no supporter will turn down success they now want to be entertained along the way. This is the problem that has faced Scott and one that has polarised opinions on here and at the ground, unfortunately results now are not the be all and end all and a number of supporters are not prepared to just accept results irrespective of style, This is unfortunate for managers today however the vast majority have embraced this view as evidenced by the decent football seen in all divisions.

I hope that the recent changes in the team means that Scott has also taken this on board however if we were to return to the style of play seen at our last few home games than I can guarantee the knives will be out again and this time an upturn in results will not change opinions and " shamefull supporters" such as myself may well vote with our feet.

 

[Roy_loak]

I totally agree. In our budget (agreed in June) we took a chainsaw to the pay on the day attendance forecasts because we believed that the recession and the resulting tightening of belts would severely impact on our gates. Personally I'm sick of the football on the tv, tired of the Premiership prima donnas, have no interest in the England team and the cheap caps given away and I have to be emotionally involved to enjoy (or otherwise) a match. I'd rather go and watch the Sunday morning games at my local playing fields for my 'entertainment' if Brentford aren't playing. There's no denying that our cash receipts are down compared to the first nine home games of last season but we don't have any hostages to fortune in our budget, we can offer improved contracts to players (Myles Weston this week) and also strengthen the squad as necessary (Rowan Vine this week) all within the budget.

What I don't have though is any feel for what percentage of our fall in gates is down to the discontent expressed by some on here re the quality of football played at Griffin Park and what is due to the recession and Xmas coming up.

it may be that people who deny that the rubbish we've endured under scott has had no effect whatsoever on our gates are right, or it may be that they are being obtuse, or "in denial" as the youngsters would say. i can only speak for those that i personally know that have told me they are currently "out of love" with bfc and are choosing other things to do. it saddened me that the last person i would ever have thought to turn their back on the bees left early v bournemouth and hasn't been seen at a game since. he is coming to southampton, but his motivation in that case is family rivalry.
so to provide you with a bit of feedback mr abee, i can tell you that there are people who have been alienated from the bees by the football they've endured this season. it's a reasonable assumption that there are also those that can't afford it, but i don't know any of them so can't comment.
personally speaking my support of bfc is unconditional and doesn't depend on results or being "entertained", but in response to your post above, i'm sorry to say that i can assure you our gates have been negatively affected by scott's hoofball rubbish, and i know specific examples of long term supporters and neutrals.

 

[south coast bees]

Close this thread,I'm getting dizzy going round and round depending on results.

 

[abee]

abee what was the average budgeted for this season?

We don't budget for an average attendance as it's meaningless because of the comps and other promotions. We scrapped this when I became involved in December 2007. The 2010-11 budget was completed and approved by the BFC board in June by which time we knew the number of Early Bird season tickets that had been sold and the cash banked from them. We then forecast the full price season tickets that we thought we could sell between June and August plus the cash revenues per match .....home paying supporters and away paying supporters. The board receives a full spreadsheet after every home match showing the difference per match between the budget and the actual take in cash revenues (pay on the day) and we are ahead of forecasts after the first nine home matches. That doesn't give me any real pleasure because we are 'less ahead' than I hoped we would be if that makes sense.

I'll give you examples of why the old method of doing the budgets was seriously flawed.

Sheffield Wednesday attendance 5,396.
Oldham attendance 5,339
Bournemouth attendance 5,278

You may agree that the declared attendances for these matches were pretty close yet the Oldham revenues were £12,067 less than for Sheff Wed (forget the tv monies as I'm talking about pay at the gate) and £9,484 less than for Bournemouth although in the latter case the Bournemouth attendance was less.

 

[abee]

it may be that people who deny that the rubbish we've endured under scott has had no effect whatsoever on our gates are right, or it may be that they are being obtuse, or "in denial" as the youngsters would say. i can only speak for those that i personally know that have told me they are currently "out of love" with bfc and are choosing other things to do. it saddened me that the last person i would ever have thought to turn their back on the bees left early v bournemouth and hasn't been seen at a game since. he is coming to southampton, but his motivation in that case is family rivalry.
so to provide you with a bit of feedback mr abee, i can tell you that there are people who have been alienated from the bees by the football they've endured this season. it's a reasonable assumption that there are also those that can't afford it, but i don't know any of them so can't comment.
personally speaking my support of bfc is unconditional and doesn't depend on results or being "entertained", but in response to your post above, i'm sorry to say that i can assure you our gates have been negatively affected by scott's hoofball rubbish, and i know specific examples of long term supporters and neutrals.

Thanks for your input and continuing support. I too know people who have dropped out of attending regularly but it's not clear to me if we were say 3rd in the table whilst still playing what supporters perceive to be unattractive football whether the lapsed support would largely return. Fans have said to me 'I'm not coming to watch that rubbish' but is it the 'rubbish football' that turns them away or is the combination of perceived 'rubbish' with poor home results ...three wins out of nine matches. That was really my point.

When I was reading the posts some months ago on here saying that if we halved the prices we'd double the attendances then whilst I didn't believe it for one minute no reference that I can immediately recall was made to the quality of football. The argument I think was that supporters would come to watch for ten quid even if the football was rubbish but not for the current pricing structure.

The next test will be the 2011-12 season ticket sales in April/May by which time people will have maybe a better idea on how the recession is affecting their own finances plus their views of where we are going next season.

 

[stevil]

Thanks for your input and continuing support. I too know people who have dropped out of attending regularly but it's not clear to me if we were say 3rd in the table whilst still playing what supporters perceive to be unattractive football whether the lapsed support would largely return. Fans have said to me 'I'm not coming to watch that rubbish' but is it the 'rubbish football' that turns them away or is the combination of perceived 'rubbish' with poor home results ...three wins out of nine matches. That was really my point.

When I was reading the posts some months ago on here saying that if we halved the prices we'd double the attendances then whilst I didn't believe it for one minute no reference that I can immediately recall was made to the quality of football. The argument I think was that supporters would come to watch for ten quid even if the football was rubbish but not for the current pricing structure.

The next test will be the 2011-12 season ticket sales in April/May by which time people will have maybe a better idea on how the recession is affecting their own finances plus their views of where we are going next season.

It is very tricky to see beyond the anecdotal and really understand why fans are staying away.

For what it's worth I read this blog yesterday (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/nov/27/owen-coyle-bolton-wanderers) about Bolton - where crowds are rising - and what struck me most is that there is obviously a 'feel good factor' at the Reebok these days.

This is a fairly nebulous concept, so what contributes to a club having a good 'feel' about it? Clearly results matter, and Bolton are now fifth after having consistently flirted with relegation under Megson. Style of play is also a key driver, and it obviously helps that Bolton fans can turn up with the expectation of seeing good football. What I think is most important, though, is having a manager who understands that that the club belongs to the fans, who works hard to forge a bond with those fans and who demonstrates that he understands what those fans want.

Owen Coyle is a bright young manager, and it is his talent as a communicator that really sets him apart. This clearly works with players - who buy into his vision and want to play for him - but also enables him to connect with the fans as well, so people want to turn up and be a part of what's going on (nearly 26,000 yesterday against Blackpool). He makes supporting Bolton fun.

It doesn't take a genius to observe that Andy Scott is not exactly succeeding in this area at the moment. His (current) media persona absolutely stinks, and is alienating fans in their droves. Many managers have successfully adopted an 'us against the world' siege mentality approach (Ferguson and Mourinho spring to mind), but they normally include the fans as a sub-set of 'us' rather than 'the world'.

I really hope that he is able to get past his apparent paranoia learn some lessons from this difficult period.

 

[Streetboy]

It is very tricky to see beyond the anecdotal and really understand why fans are staying away.

For what it's worth I read this blog yesterday (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/nov/27/owen-coyle-bolton-wanderers) about Bolton - where crowds are rising - and what struck me most is that there is obviously a 'feel good factor' at the Reebok these days.

This is a fairly nebulous concept, so what contributes to a club having a good 'feel' about it? Clearly results matter, and Bolton are now fifth after having consistently flirted with relegation under Megson. Style of play is also a key driver, and it obviously helps that Bolton fans can turn up with the expectation of seeing good football. What I think is most important, though, is having a manager who understands that that the club belongs to the fans, who works hard to forge a bond with those fans and who demonstrates that he understands what those fans want.

Owen Coyle is a bright young manager, and it is his talent as a communicator that really sets him apart. This clearly works with players - who buy into his vision and want to play for him - but also enables him to connect with the fans as well, so people want to turn up and be a part of what's going on (nearly 26,000 yesterday against Blackpool). He makes supporting Bolton fun.

It doesn't take a genius to observe that Andy Scott is not exactly succeeding in this area at the moment. His (current) media persona absolutely stinks, and is alienating fans in their droves. Many managers have successfully adopted an 'us against the world' siege mentality approach (Ferguson and Mourinho spring to mind), but they normally include the fans as a sub-set of 'us' rather than 'the world'.

I really hope that he is able to get past his apparent paranoia learn some lessons from this difficult period.

Nail on head here IMHO, and this is why this debate will carry on going round in circled for ever more. The quality of football can't be the issue as we've had more poor football than good football at GP for longer than most can remember, plus we've been playing some half decent stuff in recent games (admittedly in away games, it would probably help Scott if this trend has been reversed to good home performances and poor away ones). The results can't be the issue as recent ones are again decent, making the crap of early to mid November look like the blip rather than the superb October. The issue is definitely AS with most people, I feel. For every bit of good football we play, or good result we carve out, the pressure will be straight back on him as soon as we start hoofing it, or losing a game. Does he have himself to blame for fans' having less patience with him, for developing a persona perceived as being the opposite of what MA brought to the club? Perhaps. Does he lose any sleep? I doubt it. But it will ensure this debate goes on as long as he is at the club, whatever happens on the pitch.

 

[Braemar's Northoltian Bees]

"those who have walked at this point i think is almost shameful if they are were regular before,think maybe getting above stations a bit" -quote from Braemar's Northoltian Bees

Well that is really firing from the hip and one hell of an insult to a number of supporters who have been attending GP since Moses was a boy. As others have said attending football should be a pleasurable experience however slowly but recently it has been turning into a chore in no small part due to the turgid football that has been served up.

Obviousley the hard times we are all experiencing do not help together with the general depression around football following the World Cup, and no doubt acros the board attendances are probably lower, therefore it is vital to have a product on the pitch that will impact upon the paying customers and make them want to return.

The manager will be judged on results because that is the way it has always been however talking to various other supporters of other clubs I am gaining the impression that there is a shift in perceptions and in fact supporters are now looking for results plus entertainment and whilst no supporter will turn down success they now want to be entertained along the way. This is the problem that has faced Scott and one that has polarised opinions on here and at the ground, unfortunately results now are not the be all and end all and a number of supporters are not prepared to just accept results irrespective of style, This is unfortunate for managers today however the vast majority have embraced this view as evidenced by the decent football seen in all divisions.

I hope that the recent changes in the team means that Scott has also taken this on board however if we were to return to the style of play seen at our last few home games than I can guarantee the knives will be out again and this time an upturn in results will not change opinions and " shamefull supporters" such as myself may well vote with our feet.

not really firing from the hip and insulting but honest.just how can people really be staying away at a time that the club genuinely looks it is going in the right direction.Just has 2 successful seasons,got extra funds,got a load of players in who need time to gel,wheres the patience and if the last 2 results AND performances are anything to go by,we are in for another good Season,HOPEFULLY.Theres still over half of the season to go,so my view is all this negativity on here aswell as the walking away is all a bit premature,if we were rock bottom and miles behind id understand.If people cant afford to go thats fair enough,i too have to think more of my funds when it come to going Bees now,and ive had to cut out other things this season as my hopes are higher this season,faith has not yet been lost and ive done alot of games so sacrafices have been made else where.i do feel prices at football(acroos the board)at our level are too high,simple as that and those who think halving our entrance fee will increase our gates are well wrong,proof is there when BFC do deals,freebies etc and it doesnt do a thing to our attendance.And your right,attendances nationwide are well documented as going down.

 

[DavidgRushden]

It is very tricky to see beyond the anecdotal and really understand why fans are staying away.

For what it's worth I read this blog yesterday (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/nov/27/owen-coyle-bolton-wanderers) about Bolton - where crowds are rising - and what struck me most is that there is obviously a 'feel good factor' at the Reebok these days.

This is a fairly nebulous concept, so what contributes to a club having a good 'feel' about it? Clearly results matter, and Bolton are now fifth after having consistently flirted with relegation under Megson. Style of play is also a key driver, and it obviously helps that Bolton fans can turn up with the expectation of seeing good football. What I think is most important, though, is having a manager who understands that that the club belongs to the fans, who works hard to forge a bond with those fans and who demonstrates that he understands what those fans want.

Owen Coyle is a bright young manager, and it is his talent as a communicator that really sets him apart. This clearly works with players - who buy into his vision and want to play for him - but also enables him to connect with the fans as well, so people want to turn up and be a part of what's going on (nearly 26,000 yesterday against Blackpool). He makes supporting Bolton fun.

It doesn't take a genius to observe that Andy Scott is not exactly succeeding in this area at the moment. His (current) media persona absolutely stinks, and is alienating fans in their droves. Many managers have successfully adopted an 'us against the world' siege mentality approach (Ferguson and Mourinho spring to mind), but they normally include the fans as a sub-set of 'us' rather than 'the world'.

I really hope that he is able to get past his apparent paranoia learn some lessons from this difficult period.

The last 2 paragraphs are so spot on.Nobody expects AS to bow down to every supporters comments(good or bad), but a little bit more respect for supporters would go a long way.Let's face it, we have mostly been here longer than he has been, and no doubt will be here long after he has departed at some point for pastures new. Incidentally, I am one of those who has supported him for most of the time he has been here, and would continue to do so, but have been disappointed at his seemingly lack of capabilities in dealing with supporters who have a right to criticise, of which most do in a decent way. His current methods are indeed alienating many.

 

[Stanley]

I really don't understand why people are so obsessed with Andy Scott's personality. There must be some very sensitive souls who have stopped going because they think the manager is rude.

Beats me, he always comes across as fine to me. Has a few stressy moments but what manager doesn't...

 

[jlove]

There's a bit of a theoretical argument developing about whether it is "attractive football" or position in the table that is the major contributor to attendance at GP. This is solved by:

α[exi = cos(x) + sin(x)]

where x is the position in the league and α is the average relative height in metres of the ball over 90 minutes, giving e as the additional attendance, excluding the onion factor.

I also can show, using quantum physics, that AS's recent press comments have endeared and alienated fans in equal numbers, thus cancelling out any effect.

I do hope this clarifies everything to all and that abee can build this into his budget calculations for next season. There is, therefore, no further need for this thread; please close it.

 

[Braemar's Northoltian Bees]

Beats me, he always comes across as fine to me. Has a few stressy moments but what manager doesn't...

i thought being a fan is about the club,there are plenty of players and managers that will come and go,good and bad wether it be ability or personality but its the club we,or I follow anyway.for me to really fume over a player or manager they must say or do something quite insulting or negative.To be honest,i just dont see what Scott has said that is that bad,maybe more silly,un needed but nothing to get high and mighty over


well documented that as good Allen was at promoting the club and entertainment in himself,that he could also be a v ery difficult person too

 

[JTofBFC]

Thanks for your input and continuing support. I too know people who have dropped out of attending regularly but it's not clear to me if we were say 3rd in the table whilst still playing what supporters perceive to be unattractive football whether the lapsed support would largely return. Fans have said to me 'I'm not coming to watch that rubbish' but is it the 'rubbish football' that turns them away or is the combination of perceived 'rubbish' with poor home results ...three wins out of nine matches. That was really my point.

When I was reading the posts some months ago on here saying that if we halved the prices we'd double the attendances then whilst I didn't believe it for one minute no reference that I can immediately recall was made to the quality of football. The argument I think was that supporters would come to watch for ten quid even if the football was rubbish but not for the current pricing structure.

The next test will be the 2011-12 season ticket sales in April/May by which time people will have maybe a better idea on how the recession is affecting their own finances plus their views of where we are going next season.

For what it is worth, my view is that it is a combination of the poor quality football seen at home for a large number of home league games and the home results that has led to the dissatisfaction. If we had played like we had against Sheff Weds , Posh (2nd half), Hull, Everton and lost most fans would have accepted it as a valiant effort. In the main though the home form has not only been shocking in terms of points return but absolutely dire in terms of entertainment and quality. The concept of season ticket holders staying away is not a myth. This years stayaway ST holders are next years non renewals !

In my view Scott would do well to remember that the vast majority of the fans of this club (whether he thinks they matter or not) see the team mainly (or often entirely) at home. The good away run of the last 4 games (which Scott has probably conveniently forgotten followed 3 successive scoreless away matches) has in the main been achieved at grounds and times when there is not going to be a lot of away support.

Personally I am delighted but also surprised that we have managed to win 4 consecutive away league games and pulled ourselves right up the table. (Especially having encouraged many people I know to back us for the title at odds of between 25/1 and 40/1 and looking fairly foolish as the odds went out to 250/1 !). It clearly has (at least in the case of the last 2) been achieved with a different formation (despite denials of this from both the Scott loyals and the man himself) even though his previous press comments had suggested that he was not likely to do a u-turn on the "pass it to Weston Plan A, B, C and D" tactics that had previously been employed.

The jury is still very much out for me on Scott and I don't think he is capable of producing an entertaining team if I am honest but at least we do not now have to rush into a change at the wrong time of the season. Who knows if we carry on our away form and can start doing something at home the play offs may even be on - I don't think we are anywhere near good enough but it is a poor division.

I think his press comments after the last 2 away games however are poorly judged, lacking appreciation of the issues, and may yet come back to bite him on the arse.

 

[abee]

. This years stayaway ST holders are next years non renewals !

:yes:

 

[vcmazz]

There's a bit of a theoretical argument developing about whether it is "attractive football" or position in the table that is the major contributor to attendance at GP. This is solved by:

α[exi = cos(x) + sin(x)]

where x is the position in the league and α is the average relative height in metres of the ball over 90 minutes, giving e as the additional attendance, excluding the onion factor.

I also can show, using quantum physics, that AS's recent press comments have endeared and alienated fans in equal numbers, thus cancelling out any effect.

I do hope this clarifies everything to all and that abee can build this into his budget calculations for next season. There is, therefore, no further need for this thread; please close it.

No point closing it. You see, if you consider this,

y = mx + b x [2sq]

y obviously representing the number of Andy Scott based threads currently open on the GPG, we find that each time a thread is closed (mx) two more are started (b). My conclusion therefore, is that it is far better to keep this thread open in order to avoid fringe threads [2sq], which would possibly cover such diverse matters as the cut of his slacks, breakfast habits etc., until eventually the life and times of Andy Scott would be the only topic we discussed on the GPG. Which wouldn't do. NorthamptonBee's got a book to sell :yes:.

 

[hypa123]

he is like a raft of managers who have got us to a middling League 1 position.

No he isn't. He's a manager with a L2 winner's trophy under his belt who has turned his season around after a terrible start in the league while engineering two excellent cup runs. The overall pattern of the league season to date has been one of gradual and constant acceleration with every prospect of a continued rise up the table.

AS should ask himself

As for the dwindling support, AS's critics should ask themselves whether their own whinging, carping and constant niggling has not had the effect of a self-fulfilling prophecy, affecting the way other supporters see how the team is playing and deterring many of them from turning up.

 

[beebopalula]

No he isn't. He's a manager with a L2 winner's trophy under his belt who has turned his season around after a terrible start in the league while engineering two excellent cup runs. The overall pattern of the league season to date has been one of gradual and constant acceleration with every prospect of a continued rise up the table.



As for the dwindling support, AS's critics should ask themselves whether their own whinging, carping and constant niggling has not had the effect of a self-fulfilling prophecy, affecting the way other supporters see how the team is playing and deterring many of them from turning up.

In response;
point one-we're currently just below halfway and finished just above halfway last year i.e middling. What was achieved in League 2 is irrelevant to performing now in League 1. Where we will finish this season remains to be seen.
point two-with respect, I think supporters are mature enough to make up their own minds about whether they wish to attend games and base their decision [ presumably ] on their assessment of what they have seen. The fact is that our attendances are falling and I know from personal experience [ as do others] that it's the product that isn't selling.

 

[JTofBFC]

As for the dwindling support, AS's critics should ask themselves whether their own whinging, carping and constant niggling has not had the effect of a self-fulfilling prophecy, affecting the way other supporters see how the team is playing and deterring many of them from turning up.

What utter utter baloney.

You should try watching it mate !

 

[BedfontRed]

No he isn't. He's a manager with a L2 winner's trophy under his belt who has turned his season around after a terrible start in the league while engineering two excellent cup runs. The overall pattern of the league season to date has been one of gradual and constant acceleration with every prospect of a continued rise up the table.



As for the dwindling support, AS's critics should ask themselves whether their own whinging, carping and constant niggling has not had the effect of a self-fulfilling prophecy, affecting the way other supporters see how the team is playing and deterring many of them from turning up.

What an unbelievable load of old crap!!!!!!!!

 

[Newbee]

As for the dwindling support, AS's critics should ask themselves whether their own whinging, carping and constant niggling has not had the effect of a self-fulfilling prophecy, affecting the way other supporters see how the team is playing and deterring many of them from turning up.

Probably closer to the truth than some would like to admit...

 

[detours]

The only way our support would be at any sort of consistently high level is if we were currently in the play-off places or at least contending, which we aren't doing at the moment. If we have a good xmas campaign and make a push for promotion, come the new year our support will get much better.

So far this season, the performances at home haven't been very good (though some occasional excellent ones), but the overall results have been much better than last season. We are in touching distance of the play-offs, and I believe we have turned the corner. AS isn't getting sacked, whether the attendances are good or bad because the results speak for themselves.

Unfortunately, if you dislike the team or the tactics then all you can do is vote with your feet. But that is all you can do, although I get the impression that a promotion winning season will see a lot of so called 'fans' breaking their self-imposed exile.

 

[wanderer paul]

:yes:

The 'no shows' are disappointing, along with the lower 'pay on the day', definitely a concern and something to think about.