Another Manager Poll

[Theobee]

Fair do's, just strange as exactly what a few of us talked about at the game today, sure that Warburton will be involved in some capacity next season and possibly better credentials than NF for the role. Still hope that we land someone with a proven track record and really hope that names like Coppell, Hoddle and Di Matteo are among the interviewee, shows that we are an attractive prospect.

I was behind the Goal in Ealing Rd and never heard a word you said, honest, but totally agree.

Obviously a lot of speculation and paper talk at the moment so it would be nice to know who is on the short list but probably never will.

Depends a lot on how much is really available, some think it’s an endless pot and must be in cloud cuckoo land............ or maybe it’s just me that’s the non believer. :shrug:

In addition to MB’s annual input I think Scott may have wasted a bit of extra cash from last season’s transfers i.e. Elder, Dickson and Turner (what was the final settlement for that?) which must have been close to £0.75 - £1m in total

No transfers this season and not sure what Wembley produced but with Gates down I don’t really expect the same as last year to be available.............................. hope I’m wrong.

I think deep down we all wish for someone like those you mention and I would be over the moon if it happens but being a sad old git with 49y BFC experience I’m expecting no more than we already have.

 

[Bigbee]

Glen Hoddle runs an academy , Mr Benham wants an academy , does it have to be in the UK ? ....................................... Mr Warbs has a black book of foreign contacts too as back up............

 

[Gosport Bee]

Don't really understand why Coppell is such a favourite, walked out on us after One season & a history of walking out on other clubs.

 

[blunstone]

time for a short-term memory check and an election speech!!!

under AS a few short months ago posters were looking down and there was much talk of a hasty return to division two.

a few of us said don't panic, keep the faith etc - but deep down we all knew things weren't quite right.

and numerous, justified, moans and groans about hoofball.

we are now (at the time of writing) five points ahead of charlton and six better off than shef wednesday, two of the 'big' and much fancied clubs in the division.

we are mid-table and 100% safe. and, at the very least, trying to play football. and with much the same squad.

a big name manager might not do any better ---- one or two have played musical chairs and aren't doing that well. or are out of work again.

so gentlemen, vote for Foz !!!!

 

[beebopalula]

time for a short-term memory check and an election speech!!!

under AS a few short months ago posters were looking down and there was much talk of a hasty return to division two.

a few of us said don't panic, keep the faith etc - but deep down we all knew things weren't quite right.

and numerous, justified, moans and groans about hoofball.

we are now (at the time of writing) five points ahead of charlton and six better off than shef wednesday, two of the 'big' and much fancied clubs in the division.

we are mid-table and 100% safe. and, at the very least, trying to play football. and with much the same squad.

a big name manager might not do any better ---- one or two have played musical chairs and aren't doing that well. or are out of work again.

so gentlemen, vote for Foz !!!!

Totally agree. It's amazing to me how Fozzy's achievement in turning the club around is underestimated by some. We were dead in the water after Dagenham [ read the latest TITS article interview with Hunty]. The team was broken and yet Fozzy got us to a stage where we had an outside chance of the playoffs. His points per game ratio would be enough to get us into a playoff position and it isn't his squad. We are playing excellent football and the only way is up if the club gives Fozzy the job and the cash to invest in three key players.

 

[busheybee]

time for a short-term memory check and an election speech!!!

under AS a few short months ago posters were looking down and there was much talk of a hasty return to division two.

a few of us said don't panic, keep the faith etc - but deep down we all knew things weren't quite right.

and numerous, justified, moans and groans about hoofball.

we are now (at the time of writing) five points ahead of charlton and six better off than shef wednesday, two of the 'big' and much fancied clubs in the division.

we are mid-table and 100% safe. and, at the very least, trying to play football. and with much the same squad.

a big name manager might not do any better ---- one or two have played musical chairs and aren't doing that well. or are out of work again.

so gentlemen, vote for Foz !!!!

My sentiments exactly. Forster was asked to do a job after AS's departure. He's got us playing better football, we went to Wembley (something that was distinctly unlikely at one point), he's secured our league 1 status (with a couple of wins against Walsall and Swindon we might even have been creeping into the play offs). On top of this he's lost his no.1 keeper, a couple of first choice defenders and a couple of first choice attackers. I'd be more than happy to give him a go for a while longer. He comes across as knowledgeable, knows how to play football and has had a fantastic first half season as a manager.
Just my opinion mind.

 

[hypa123]

we went to Wembley (something that was distinctly unlikely at one point)

On a point of detail: most of the work to get to Wembley was done under Scott (with a large assist from Richard Lee). The team's JPT record under Forster is won one, lost one.

 

[-superbees2k3-]

I don't see why anyone would be underestimating Forster's achievement as he has done a great job. However at such a critical time for the club (we have a chance of getting out of this division at the right end in the next two seasons I believe) I think people, myself included, are swayed towards the thought of someone with experience spending the money we have.

Its a tough one but Forster getting the job would certainly not be a bad thing in my books, big changes needed in the squad though unfortunately.

 

[mattbee85]

I know this is off the subject but yesterday i was thinking to myself, AS really was odd. Sam Saunders, Dave and Richard lee were all left on sidelines at some point by AS and if we didnt have them now god knows where we would be!!!! I mean each of these players were probably at one point thinking to themselves that they want to leave GP. We have alot to thank NF for imho!!!!

 

[Steve G]

time for a short-term memory check and an election speech!!!

under AS a few short months ago posters were looking down and there was much talk of a hasty return to division two.

a few of us said don't panic, keep the faith etc - but deep down we all knew things weren't quite right.

and numerous, justified, moans and groans about hoofball.

we are now (at the time of writing) five points ahead of charlton and six better off than shef wednesday, two of the 'big' and much fancied clubs in the division.

we are mid-table and 100% safe. and, at the very least, trying to play football. and with much the same squad.

a big name manager might not do any better ---- one or two have played musical chairs and aren't doing that well. or are out of work again.

so gentlemen, vote for Foz !!!!

Vote for Foz, vote for a quiet life in Division 1, vote to keep 'little' Brentford in the backwaters of London football, vote to keep the Wembley 'gloryhunters' away. No thanks!!

 

[jlove]

Sam Saunders, Dave and Richard lee were all left on sidelines at some point by AS...!

So were Spillane, Simpson and Balkestein... isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?

 

[Ambrose_1889]

I just do not understand this mentality that we should overlook the likes of Coppell, Di Matteo, Hoddle for Forster. Yes, they are by no means going to guarentee us success but their previous record and experience with clubs with a good budget suggest they will do alright. Forster is too much of a gamble and it would be wrong for the club to give him such huge responsibility so soon in his career. He's done ok to steady our season but we've also seen a lot of naivity from him (which is to be expected). I will confidently say I cannot see him being manager next season, if we are looking at the likes of Di Matteo. Best of luck with your managerial career elsewhere Nicky

 

[mattbee85]

I just do not understand this mentality that we should overlook the likes of Coppell, Di Matteo, Hoddle for Forster. Yes, they are by no means going to guarentee us success but their previous record and experience with clubs with a good budget suggest they will do alright. Forster is too much of a gamble and it would be wrong for the club to give him such huge responsibility so soon in his career. He's done ok to steady our season but we've also seen a lot of naivity from him (which is to be expected). I will confidently say I cannot see him being manager next season, if we are looking at the likes of Di Matteo. Best of luck with your managerial career elsewhere Nicky

Are you serious?? Glenn hoddle for starters is a joke he probably has no knowledge of lower league football as the closest he gets at the moment is pundit work. IMO he would be very out of touch these days!!! When was the last time Glenn hoddle spent a transfer kitty well?? 90s???? Steve coppell Yes agreed a very good manager but i dnt think we will over look him but he will over look us!!! Who wants a manger that dosnt like commiting themselves for more than a year?? Last time he was here yes we were great but he couldnt wait to leave!!! As a real supporter i wouldnt want him as i think he only has loyalty to himself!!! Di Matteo imo if NF dosnt get the job would be an exciting prospect and wouldnt say no to seeing him down at GP!!! likes to play football and would definately be someone i would trust with MBs doe!!!

 

[brooks]

Vote for Foz, vote for a quiet life in Division 1, vote to keep 'little' Brentford in the backwaters of London football, vote to keep the Wembley 'gloryhunters' away. No thanks!!

I'm willing to listen but why would that happen?

 

[busheybee]

On a point of detail: most of the work to get to Wembley was done under Scott (with a large assist from Richard Lee). The team's JPT record under Forster is won one, lost one.

That part is true but after the first leg of the final we were the clear underdogs to go through. Can't be proved I know but I was fairly certain that the night we drew 1-1 with Exeter was our last shot at getting to Wembley. NF's appointment at that stge helped to re-energise the team and I am sure was a major point in getting us through the second leg.
Just my opinion mind!

 

[Inappropriate Smilies Bee]

is that right that Steve Coppell lives in Brentford/Ealing?!?
Coppell or Di Matteo and i would be highly delighted.
have any hetrosexuals applied? I HOPE NOT!!!

 

[wayfarer172]

I've gone from being 100% behind NF as our next gaffer to 100% totally confused. This appointment is so important to the future of BFC. You read every day now (Almost) of clubs going under,and not being able to pay the players wages etc. I think most of us on here have seen BFC skittle around Divs 1/2 for the past 30/40 years. I have no doubt that NF will make a fine manager one day, but at the moment I am getting this feeling of de va ju.As is well known on here I don't attend games and rely on Bees Player and the comments of the good folk on the gpg.
When I look at the likes of QPR and how well they are doing, they are no bigger than us, so what has gone wrong. BFC own a prime bit of land ,close to the motorway and Heathrow etc.Someone should sit outside the gates of GP and just watch all the comings and goings.I honestly thing the board know now who they want but it aint like the old days whwere a deal could be done in the local pub over a pint or two. For a start you have those money grabbing agents trying to squeeze everything they can mainly for themselves.
Maybe we will be put out of our misery this week, we'll see. Personally I'd love DeMatteo or Coppell to get the gig.
We'll see.

 

[Niyx]

so gentlemen, vote for Foz !!!!

C'mon Cardiff

 

[hypa123]

I am getting this feeling of de va ju

How do you fancy a trip to Paris? I could straighten you out on one or two of the finer points of the French language.

Actually I'm with Wayfarer on this one. Though Forster has made a good fist of the task he was given, it's surely a bit early in his career to give him the position on a permanent basis (insofar as a manager's position is ever permanent). I'd much rather the job went to an older, wiser head. Coppell or di Matteo? Mmm, yes please.

 

[scruff puppy pup]

is that right that Steve Coppell lives in Brentford/Ealing?!?

Well, it's been said a few times that he does, we're certainly local to where he lives.
Does anyone blame him leaving after a season with Noades as an owner?
Anyway, one season under Steve Coppell's managment is worth three under Glenn Hoddle's or Roberto Di Matteo's. FACT!

 

[boatmonkey]

I am bamboozled by this one folks * But Is n't this entire process of discussion fairly academic in any case? For example. Fozzy gets the gig with much fanfare, a summer of speculation, anticipation etc. Given. For the sake of argument the team fails to perform and we are languishing awkwardly in the relegation *zone in Feb. The GpG (understandably) will *go into apoplectic 'Forster out!' overdrive. 'Too inexperienced' etc. He will eventually*Get the old tin tack by March and the club will draught in the services of a relegation fire fighter until the end of the season. How would*this scenario change if we manage to snare a so called big name? If we found ourselves in the plop by Feb, I predict we would see the same response , with 'too inexperienced ' replaced by 'past it' or 'out of touch with the modern lower league game'. Experienced manager leaves. Etc..
If the board know what's good for this club they will employ a boss who has international pedigree. Is a disciple of the beautiful game, and only ever fields a team that plays with commitment, passion, flair and élan. Oh yeah, and only ever wins. *He will do this by assembling a rag tag bunch of die hards who are happy to play just for the love of the game. no money spent on transfers or wages, premier league in 2 years, Europe in 3. Easy really. Dont see what all the fuss is about.*

 

[wayfarer172]

How do you fancy a trip to Paris? I could straighten you out on one or two of the finer points of the French language.

Actually I'm with Wayfarer on this one. Though Forster has made a good fist of the task he was given, it's surely a bit early in his career to give him the position on a permanent basis (insofar as a manager's position is ever permanent). I'd much rather the job went to an older, wiser head. Coppell or di Matteo? Mmm, yes please.

Thanks for your kind offer, or as they say in Spain, Grassy Arse.

 

[blunstone]

How do you fancy a trip to Paris? I could straighten you out on one or two of the finer points of the French language.

Actually I'm with Wayfarer on this one. Though Forster has made a good fist of the task he was given, it's surely a bit early in his career to give him the position on a permanent basis (insofar as a manager's position is ever permanent). I'd much rather the job went to an older, wiser head. Coppell or di Matteo? Mmm, yes please.

whilst i see where you are coming from, managers gotta start somewhere and we aren't exactly man u or chelski.

as an aside, i am certain coppell has lost interest / energy or both - he threw in the towel in a matter of weeks at bristol.

 

[brooks]

I've gone from being 100% behind NF as our next gaffer to 100% totally confused. This appointment is so important to the future of BFC. You read every day now (Almost) of clubs going under,and not being able to pay the players wages etc. I think most of us on here have seen BFC skittle around Divs 1/2 for the past 30/40 years. I have no doubt that NF will make a fine manager one day, but at the moment I am getting this feeling of de va ju.As is well known on here I don't attend games and rely on Bees Player and the comments of the good folk on the gpg.
When I look at the likes of QPR and how well they are doing, they are no bigger than us, so what has gone wrong. BFC own a prime bit of land ,close to the motorway and Heathrow etc.Someone should sit outside the gates of GP and just watch all the comings and goings.I honestly thing the board know now who they want but it aint like the old days whwere a deal could be done in the local pub over a pint or two. For a start you have those money grabbing agents trying to squeeze everything they can mainly for themselves.
Maybe we will be put out of our misery this week, we'll see. Personally I'd love DeMatteo or Coppell to get the gig.
We'll see.

I wish people would accept that QPR are bigger than Brentford and have been for 40 years.

 

[blunstone]

Vote for Foz, vote for a quiet life in Division 1, vote to keep 'little' Brentford in the backwaters of London football, vote to keep the Wembley 'gloryhunters' away. No thanks!!

vote for am ambitoious, hungry young manager!

 

[Kingston Bee]

Forster has done an excellent job with what he had to work with, and the situation he came into. However, the blueprint going forward is different on so many fronts, the focus on the academy here and the tie up with clubs overseas, the focus on moving up rather than treading water, the Lionel Road project, and lastly of course the financial support from MB. We have to build the foundations to have any chance of succeeding imo. This position has probably come too early for NF but am sure we will want to retain Nicky's services in some way. Brentford football club with ambition whatever next.

 

[Steve G]

I wish people would accept that QPR are bigger than Brentford and have been for 40 years.

Time for a change then, we don't have to accept the 'I know my place' mentality.

 

[absenteebee]

I wish people would accept that QPR fans are bigger idiots than Brentford fans and have been for 40 years.

 

[Kingston Bee]

Time for a change then, we don't have to accept the 'I know my place' mentality.

Spot on Steve G!!!!

 

[Steve G]

vote for am ambitoious, hungry young manager!

That'd be great, but I can't see us prising Gus Poyet away from Brighton.

 

[brooks]

Time for a change then, we don't have to accept the 'I know my place' mentality.

Grow up. It's a fact, not a mentality.

 

[ianallon]

Grow up. It's a fact, not a mentality.

It is indeed a fact. We are many millions in debt and are planning to spend more. A millionaire donor(!) rarely gets you very far these days. We have low gates and this needs to be addressed over a reasonably long period of time with a manager(s) who will get the most from a small playing budget.

There's nothing wrong with aiming for the stars, but the unrealistic expectations of many on the GPG will set us up for a massive fall.

On the whole, I have enjoyed this season. Some massive wins/results/games in the League Cup, a visit to Wembley and a some highs and lows throughout the rest of the games.

Without question, this season has been much better than average compared to my previous 38 years of watching the Bees.

 

[wanderer paul]

On a point of detail: most of the work to get to Wembley was done under Scott (with a large assist from Richard Lee). The team's JPT record under Forster is won one, lost one.

I can tell you now, we would not have gone to Wembley under AS, the NF/MW game plan v Exeter was to win it playing football, not to hoof it and bore the crap out of the travelling supporters.

 

[blunstone]

It is indeed a fact. We are many millions in debt and are planning to spend more. A millionaire donor(!) rarely gets you very far these days. We have low gates and this needs to be addressed over a reasonably long period of time with a manager(s) who will get the most from a small playing budget.

There's nothing wrong with aiming for the stars, but the unrealistic expectations of many on the GPG will set us up for a massive fall.

On the whole, I have enjoyed this season. Some massive wins/results/games in the League Cup, a visit to Wembley and a some highs and lows throughout the rest of the games.

Without question, this season has been much better than average compared to my previous 38 years of watching the Bees.

yes. with you all the way.

 

[sonofabee]

It is indeed a fact. We are many millions in debt and are planning to spend more. A millionaire donor(!) rarely gets you very far these days. We have low gates and this needs to be addressed over a reasonably long period of time with a manager(s) who will get the most from a small playing budget.

There's nothing wrong with aiming for the stars, but the

unrealistic expectations of many on the GPG will set us up for a massive fall.
On the whole, I have enjoyed this season. Some massive wins/results/games in the League Cup, a visit to Wembley and a some highs and lows throughout the rest of thegame

Without question, this season has been much better than average compared to my previous 38 years of watching the Bees.

By better, I take it you mean more exciting high profile games with Hull, Everton, Brum and Wembley?

You surely cannot mean that the standard of football played has been better than most of the last 38, I've got 43 years of watching and the hoofball deployed against the lesser clubs in this division has been amongst the most turgid football I've witnessed.

It's recovered under NF and enjoyable to watch, now we need to start scoring goals to win games we dominate

 

[shouldbee]

I can tell you now, we would not have gone to Wembley under AS, the NF/MW game plan v Exeter was to win it playing football, not to hoof it and bore the crap out of the travelling supporters.

Absolutely SPOT ON

 

[Sweepy]

I feel that Fozzy has done okay, but has he done enough to secure the job if he is up against any single one of Coppell, Hoddle or Di Matteo? I suspect not.

We had the fixtures to secure the points to put us neck and neck with Bournemouth in 6th place. Instead we dropped six points against Swindon and Walsall. In his defence, this season's team has been as reliable as a 70s Leyland, but the mixed bag of results gives the club the opportunity to make the biggest possible statement of intent with regards to the next managerial appointment.

For once Brentford, please do not leave us underwhelmed. I know abee wont have read this plea (apparently his blood pressure can't cope with my posts) but I hope that they're thinking along these lines in the boardroom as well. I have confidence the right appointment will be made. Exciting times.

 

[Bungy Bee]

Some people seem to forget who was in the crowd for NF first game...Ray Wilkins....

 

[SmiffyBee]

Some people seem to forget who was in the crowd for NF first game...Ray Wilkins....

Keith Hill and John Ward have also been seen at recent Bees games :moo:

 

[horshambees]

Some people seem to forget who was in the crowd for NF first game...Ray Wilkins....

Yeah right......made a right mess of anywhere he has been left alone........no thanks

 

[wanderer paul]

Keith Hill and John Ward have also been seen at recent Bees games :moo:

ITK ITK

 

[The Pipe]

Acording to my mate Gary on the Ealing Road terraces NF has got the job, however as any information from him is notoriousley unreliable I put no faith in that comment!!!

It is a difficult task for the board and I would imagine some of the high expectations on here of both Managers and Players will not make the job any easier. Somehow they need to find a balancing act between a manager that can progress the team by playing good football, and also finance an influx of players better than those currently on our books, This must tax the brains as some of the names mentioned on here will want big money which therefore reduces the amount spent on players.

The previous manager had a decent budget which was increased I beleive when asked, whether the club can fund a similar budget for next season based on the income to date only they will know but this pot of cash has to be spent wisely on both management team and players and i would imagine there is only a certain amount available. This will make discussions with potential managers interesting and those who beleive they can unearth some cheap finds and also develop our existing players must be first choice.

Would love a name like DeMateo plus a decent transfer kitty but am fairly philosophical regarding the outcome just hope for a decent exciting season with a fair few goals scored by the Bees.

 

[Kingston Bee]

It is indeed a fact. We are many millions in debt and are planning to spend more. A millionaire donor(!) rarely gets you very far these days. We have low gates and this needs to be addressed over a reasonably long period of time with a manager(s) who will get the most from a small playing budget.

There's nothing wrong with aiming for the stars, but the unrealistic expectations of many on the GPG will set us up for a massive fall.

On the whole, I have enjoyed this season. Some massive wins/results/games in the League Cup, a visit to Wembley and a some highs and lows throughout the rest of the games.

Without question, this season has been much better than average compared to my previous 38 years of watching the Bees.

All I can say is that you must have had a rough time if you think this season was good by comparison with the previous 38 years. Like it or not I sense we are in for a change, break with tradition, call it what you want I but I dont think things will be the same once the ball gets rolling. Bring it on I cant wait....

 

[Ambrose_1889]

All I can say is that you must have had a rough time if you think this season was good by comparison with the previous 38 years. Like it or not I sense we are in for a change, break with tradition, call it what you want I but I dont think things will be the same once the ball gets rolling. Bring it on I cant wait....

Some on here seem to be finding it very hard to understand that we are a progressive club these days. I think there's a lot of people who would be happier for us to stay as we are just so they can moan about it - "you don't want to go up" indeed!

 

[hypa123]

I can tell you now, we would not have gone to Wembley under AS, the NF/MW game plan v Exeter was to win it playing football, not to hoof it and bore the crap out of the travelling supporters.

Oh come on, how can you be so categorical? Anyway the point is that AS did the heavy lifting in the JPT in getting the team to the point where NF was able to take it over the finishing line. And that under NF the team lost in the final.

 

[letsgotolourdes]

Some people seem to forget who was in the crowd for NF first game...Ray Wilkins....

And...So was my milkman and he's 72.

 

[wanderer paul]

Oh come on, how can you be so categorical? Anyway the point is that AS did the heavy lifting in the JPT in getting the team to the point where NF was able to take it over the finishing line. And that under NF the team lost in the final.

I would say, the majority of supporters had the same view, whereas those with Rose tinted glasses.............. The Dagenham game showed how poor we were and that the players weren't interested anymore. The team would've surrendered to Exeter, believe me, i was there.....

Anyway

Di Matteo for me (as I have been saying) or Coppell with Forster and Warburton........ :thetruth:

 

[Doovster]

All I can say is that you must have had a rough time if you think this season was good by comparison with the previous 38 years. Like it or not I sense we are in for a change, break with tradition, call it what you want I but I dont think things will be the same once the ball gets rolling. Bring it on I cant wait....

I'm with you Kingston. MB has not decided to invest the kind of wedge he has just to see us trundle along like we have since 1946! People seem nervous about us investing too much money and the long term consequences.

I think people need to understand that the whole board room is full of genuine long term Brentford supporters. People like abee are not gonna gamble with our future. We have a
man who has seriously deep pockets and who seems on a mission to get us up the leagues, in a new ground and with a youth set up to provide quality youngsters and first teamers of the future.

I for one am very relaxed about our future under the current ownership and I have high,and I believe realistic, hopes for the future.

 

[Bridge Bee]

I've got a sneaky feeling for Paulo Sousa - what are peoples thoughts on him. Did well at Swansea but it didn't work out at QPR (interference from on high) and Leicester (again lots of boardroom unrest at the time).

I think he'd get us playing decent football, but doesn't have lower league knowledge.

 

[TOMOGP]

It is a difficult task for the board and I would imagine some of the high expectations on here of both Managers and Players will not make the job any easier. Somehow they need to find a balancing act between a manager that can progress the team by playing good football, and also finance an influx of players better than those currently on our books, This must tax the brains as some of the names mentioned on here will want big money which therefore reduces the amount spent on players.

The previous manager had a decent budget which was increased I believe when asked, whether the club can fund a similar budget for next season based on the income to date only they will know but this pot of cash has to be spent wisely on both management team and players and i would imagine there is only a certain amount available. This will make discussions with potential managers interesting and those who believe they can unearth some cheap finds and also develop our existing players must be first choice.

Would love a name like DeMateo plus a decent transfer kitty but am fairly philosophical regarding the outcome just hope for a decent exciting season with a fair few goals scored by the Bees.

Yet another sensible quote Mr Pipe.
I do not envy any board member who has to make this decision- maybe they should toss a coin.
Trying to be sensible I have no ideas about actual figures so just say the budget is £3.5 Million for the playing and coaching/management you have got to say half a million to the coaching/Management leaving £3 million for players and remember abee's words that includes NI. If we are going for a NAME manager ie DeMateo that will probably be that half a million on its own thereby cutting the budget for players, whereas appointing Nicky (say) would leave more for the playing side.
Yet there is no more guarantee of success so you pays your money and takes your choice