Ref Watch

[Banana]

I thought the ref was quality but don't understand why Turnbull wasnt given a red card for the handling inside area.
.

because he was the goalkeeper.

 

[Markybee]

Ref today was very good.

 

[ladbroke]

because he was the goalkeeper.

Think he is referring to the back pass - assuming denying a goal scoring opportunity...

 

[Banana]

Think he is referring to the back pass - assuming denying a goal scoring opportunity...

Oh here we go....a qualified ref apparently. What's the law on the point re denying an obvious goal-scoring opportunity?

 

[ladbroke]

I didn't say it was denying a goal scoring opportunity. But if he dived on it to stop a scoring opportunity then technically he should have been sent off.
I believe, and I'm sure pompeybee will agree, there is nothing in writing to say that a pass back is guaranteed yellow card. Referees judgement as to what could have happened if he didn't pick it up.

 

[Banana]

I didn't say it was denying a goal scoring opportunity. But if he dived on it to stop a scoring opportunity then technically he should have been sent off.

Are you sure???? Show me the law/interpretation please.

 

[SCBee]

Not surprising that refs get criticised when you can get one as competent as yesterday following straight on from the inept buffoon we had against Orient.
Clear quality control issues at the FA!

 

[Mr Tree]

thought the ref was great, we had a couple of early slide tackles where the Prem pansies fell over and looked for free kicks and he said "that's football lads, get up"

the backpass thing does seem to be a "loophole" - i doubt it is explicitly written in the laws (that it isn't considered as a "goalscoring opportunity" in the same way as other situations) but i've never seen it treated as a goalscoring opp, even tho it clearly should be. thing is, keeper could've just launched himself at it with his feet - no need to smother it with his hands - it's probably half-instinct but also half-knowing that a desperate hack at the ball there would've put his team in trouble - so, yellow card, surely?

not sure i agree with pompeybee on the penalty one - only from the angle of, what if he'd stayed 6 yards out as opposed to rushing 12 yards out... well, Adeyemi would've had a shot! now maybe we know Adeyemi enough to know that a first-time shot or him taking a touch would've probably missed the chance, but still, it was a "goalscoring opportunity"
mind you it wasn't a disgraceful foul, a yellow was probably fair, it wasn't extreme enough for a red for me....... :shrug:

 

[Salford Bee]

Very good referee.

 

[North London Bee]

The only thing Turnbull could have been booked for in the first half was hanging onto the ball after the free kick was awarded and therefore delaying the game.

 

[wibs]

But Nlb why not a sending off for the back pass.

 

[pompeybee]

Are you sure???? Show me the law/interpretation please.

I try to avoid coming on here doing the 'I used to be a ref' thing, particularly because I'm pretty much retired and don't keep up with all the latest amendments and interpretations. (I'm sure Ladbroke is doing that!) But I think the answer is on pages 116 and 119 of the Laws of the Game, which are on the FA website at http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/refereeing/81/42/36/lawsofthegame_2012_e.pdf .

On page 116 it says that 'A goalkeeper is not permitted to touch the ball with his hand in his own penalty area ... if he touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate.'

Page 119 goes on to say when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour. It includes 'handling the ball to prevent an opponent gaining possession or developing an attack' but specifically excludes 'the goalkeeper within his own penalty area'. This appears to include when the goalkeeper handles illegally within his own penalty area, as when picking up a backpass.

On page 41, under sending-off offences, is included 'denying the opposition a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball' but again specifically excludes goalkeepers within their own penalty area.

I don't know whether this is a loophole or not. Apart from genuine mistakes, the keeper is only ever going to pick up a backpass to prevent a threat to his goal, but are we really saying that picking up a back pass should become an automatic red card? And I think that this would be a really hard one to give discretion to the referee on. A purely personal opinion is that offences like yesterday's deserve a yellow, but under the laws as I've read them the referee would have been wrong to give one.

I might regret posting this ... Fortunately maybe I'm going to be offline for a couple of days so won't get tempted to engage in further exchanges on it. I can't guarantee that I've checked every relevant bit of the laws, so if anyone else wants to do so, good luck to them.

 

[North London Bee]

But Nlb why not a sending off for the back pass.

It's not in the laws, it doesn't count as a goalscoring opportunity, sorry

 

[Banana]

I try to avoid coming on here doing the 'I used to be a ref' thing, particularly because I'm pretty much retired and don't keep up with all the latest amendments and interpretations. (I'm sure Ladbroke is doing that!) But I think the answer is on pages 116 and 119 of the Laws of the Game, which are on the FA website at http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/refereeing/81/42/36/lawsofthegame_2012_e.pdf .

On page 116 it says that 'A goalkeeper is not permitted to touch the ball with his hand in his own penalty area ... if he touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate.'

Page 119 goes on to say when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour. It includes 'handling the ball to prevent an opponent gaining possession or developing an attack' but specifically excludes 'the goalkeeper within his own penalty area'. This appears to include when the goalkeeper handles illegally within his own penalty area, as when picking up a backpass.

On page 41, under sending-off offences, is included 'denying the opposition a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball' but again specifically excludes goalkeepers within their own penalty area.

I don't know whether this is a loophole or not. Apart from genuine mistakes, the keeper is only ever going to pick up a backpass to prevent a threat to his goal, but are we really saying that picking up a back pass should become an automatic red card? And I think that this would be a really hard one to give discretion to the referee on. A purely personal opinion is that offences like yesterday's deserve a yellow, but under the laws as I've read them the referee would have been wrong to give one.

I might regret posting this ... Fortunately maybe I'm going to be offline for a couple of days so won't get tempted to engage in further exchanges on it. I can't guarantee that I've checked every relevant bit of the laws, so if anyone else wants to do so, good luck to them.

That's my understanding too.

 

[hanworthbee]

I don't know why he picked it up, it was going so slowly he could easily have got back.I'm glad the ref didn't spot deans handball, it wasn't deliberate but we were all calling for a pen on Tuesday for something similar

 

[ladbroke]

I try to avoid coming on here doing the 'I used to be a ref' thing, particularly because I'm pretty much retired and don't keep up with all the latest amendments and interpretations. (I'm sure Ladbroke is doing that!) But I think the answer is on pages 116 and 119 of the Laws of the Game, which are on the FA website at http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/refereeing/81/42/36/lawsofthegame_2012_e.pdf .

On page 116 it says that 'A goalkeeper is not permitted to touch the ball with his hand in his own penalty area ... if he touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate.'

Page 119 goes on to say when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour. It includes 'handling the ball to prevent an opponent gaining possession or developing an attack' but specifically excludes 'the goalkeeper within his own penalty area'. This appears to include when the goalkeeper handles illegally within his own penalty area, as when picking up a backpass.

On page 41, under sending-off offences, is included 'denying the opposition a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball' but again specifically excludes goalkeepers within their own penalty area.

I don't know whether this is a loophole or not. Apart from genuine mistakes, the keeper is only ever going to pick up a backpass to prevent a threat to his goal, but are we really saying that picking up a back pass should become an automatic red card? And I think that this would be a really hard one to give discretion to the referee on. A purely personal opinion is that offences like yesterday's deserve a yellow, but under the laws as I've read them the referee would have been wrong to give one.

I might regret posting this ... Fortunately maybe I'm going to be offline for a couple of days so won't get tempted to engage in further exchanges on it. I can't guarantee that I've checked every relevant bit of the laws, so if anyone else wants to do so, good luck to them.

That is how I know them, and said to my colleagues I was sitting with too. What I was referring to was that technically he would be denying goalscoring opportunity which can be a red card. Personally I wouldn't do that. Although if the keeper were to do it with ball rolling into net I may be inclined to caution.

 

[Stanley]

He was a good ref, kept the game flowing and didn't get his cards out much. Most importantly he didn't pander to the Premiership flowers and allowed some good old fashioned tackling and enthusiasm. For that I thank him and he contributed to a wonderful game. He seemd to realise this was a special day for us and the players and he seemed determined not to spoil it.

I am sure if Mike Dean (the 4th official) had been in charge it would have been very different.

As for the penalty against Dean my first reaction in the Braemar was that it was one but having seen it on telly now I am not so sure and if the ref wasn't then he was right not to give it. To balance that out Turnbull could easily have been sent off for bringing down Tom.

 

[NorthamptonBee]

He could or maybe should have booked Dave fairly early on, he had a chance or two to have their keeper off and he could have given that pen at the end, I think there were many incidents that could have gone either way but I think most understand his decisions.
I hated his free kick that he gave to Avanovich sp?? where Harry was running at him whilst he was trying to shield the ball, he waited and over he goes making a suspect clip from behind look like a shooting or near attempted rape, it's clever but it's sh*t but always a free kick in the Prem.

 

[Banana]

That is how I know them, and said to my colleagues I was sitting with too. What I was referring to was that technically he would be denying goalscoring opportunity which can be a red card. Personally I wouldn't do that. Although if the keeper were to do it with ball rolling into net I may be inclined to caution.

You can only be sent off for denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity for a foul or handball. A goalkeeper cannot under any circumstances be penalised for handball in his own team's penalty area

 

[wanderer paul]

He could or maybe should have booked Dave fairly early on, he had a chance or two to have their keeper off and he could have given that pen at the end, I think there were many incidents that could have gone either way but I think most understand his decisions.
I hated his free kick that he gave to Avanovich sp?? where Harry was running at him whilst he was trying to shield the ball, he waited and over he goes making a suspect clip from behind look like a shooting or near attempted rape, it's clever but it's sh*t but always a free kick in the Prem.

Toumani

Anyway, the tackle when Toums sent Ramires flying in the air with a nice forward flip? I thought, here we go, a booking....... But no!

As for Ivanovic, he's twice the size of Logan, yet he went down like a woman falling over in high heels after a night out. Tart.

 

[TW3Bee]

Good performance from the ref yesterday.

Hardly noticed him, which us always a good thing.

 

[pompeybee]

You can only be sent off for denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity for a foul or handball. A goalkeeper cannot under any circumstances be penalised for handball in his own team's penalty area

Correct. And much more succinct than my version above!

 

[wibs]

It's not in the laws, it doesn't count as a goalscoring opportunity, sorry

Im not disagreeing, Im just trying to understand. Why does it have to be specified? For example surely it doesnt have to be written down 'if a keeper picks it up in his area then that can also be a red card if a forward is through on goal'

 

[wibs]

You can only be sent off for denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity for a foul or handball. A goalkeeper cannot under any circumstances be penalised for handball in his own team's penalty area

Eh, so he shouldnt have been penalised at all? I am SO confused?!!

 

[wibs]

I try to avoid coming on here doing the 'I used to be a ref' thing, particularly because I'm pretty much retired and don't keep up with all the latest amendments and interpretations. (I'm sure Ladbroke is doing that!) But I think the answer is on pages 116 and 119 of the Laws of the Game, which are on the FA website at http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/refereeing/81/42/36/lawsofthegame_2012_e.pdf .

On page 116 it says that 'A goalkeeper is not permitted to touch the ball with his hand in his own penalty area ... if he touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate.'

Page 119 goes on to say when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour. It includes 'handling the ball to prevent an opponent gaining possession or developing an attack' but specifically excludes 'the goalkeeper within his own penalty area'. This appears to include when the goalkeeper handles illegally within his own penalty area, as when picking up a backpass.

On page 41, under sending-off offences, is included 'denying the opposition a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball' but again specifically excludes goalkeepers within their own penalty area.

I don't know whether this is a loophole or not. Apart from genuine mistakes, the keeper is only ever going to pick up a backpass to prevent a threat to his goal, but are we really saying that picking up a back pass should become an automatic red card? And I think that this would be a really hard one to give discretion to the referee on. A purely personal opinion is that offences like yesterday's deserve a yellow, but under the laws as I've read them the referee would have been wrong to give one.

I might regret posting this ... Fortunately maybe I'm going to be offline for a couple of days so won't get tempted to engage in further exchanges on it. I can't guarantee that I've checked every relevant bit of the laws, so if anyone else wants to do so, good luck to them.

Brilliant got it, Page 39 point 4

thank you

 

[wibs]

Brilliant got it, Page 39 point 4

thank you

 

[BeeHomeSoon]

You can only be sent off for denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity for a foul or handball. A goalkeeper cannot under any circumstances be penalised for handball in his own team's penalty area

He could have been booked for "Unsportsman like conduct" I would have thought.
I have always believed that if a goalkeeper deliberately picks up a back pass to stop an attacker going clean through on goal then he should be sent off.
What is the difference between diving on a ball going past him stopping Clayton running on to it and tapping in an empty net or rugby tackling him to stop him getting to the loose ball?
I have in the past picked up back passes when put in the poop by a suicide back pass as I know their isn't really any punishment for it, it's just always seemed an odd ruling not to punish the keeper...

 

[BeeHomeSoon]

Brilliant got it, Page 39 point 4

thank you

Is it not deemed handball though as a keeper is not even allowed to parry a back pass? :Confused:

 

[Bungy Bee]

Good ref yesterday....however when Harlee handballed in the closing minutes it was on the refs blind side....

 

[Banana]

I have always believed that if a goalkeeper deliberately picks up a back pass to stop an attacker going clean through on goal then he should be sent off.
What is the difference between diving on a ball going past him stopping Clayton running on to it and tapping in an empty net or rugby tackling him to stop him getting to the loose ball?

The laws of the games treat these differently from each other.

 

[BeeHomeSoon]

The laws of the games treat these differently from each other.

Sorry I didn't make my point properly...
I know treat them differently, what I meant to get across was "I cannot see why they treat them differently" as both would be denying a goalscoring oppotunity.

 

[Banana]

Sorry I didn't make my point properly...
I know treat them differently, what I meant to get across was "I cannot see why they treat them differently" as both would be denying a goalscoring oppotunity.

Because one used to be perfectly legal I guess.

 

[wibs]

I've watched the match tonight as I recorded it yesterday, and now knowing the rule about the backpass its embarrassing hear them going in and on about getting a red card.

Its their job, they should know the rules.

 

[YorkBee]

I thought the ref was quality but don't understand why Turnbull wasnt given a red card for the handling inside area.

I'd he hasn't have dived on it Clayton would have run through and tapped into an empty net.

as much as i think this season that clayton has been the doggies danglies even 1 on 1 with an empty next could a bit of a risk

 

[Aberdeen flyer]

Well getting back to League business we have James Linington on Saturday at Yeovil. Hope he gets his ferry back to the Isle of Wight after the game...

 

[wibs]

I've watched the match tonight as I recorded it yesterday, and now knowing the rule about the backpass its embarrassing hear them going in and on about getting a red card.

Its their job, they should know the rules.

Oh dear Martin Allen was calling for a red at ht !

 

[Banana]

Oh dear Martin Allen was calling for a red at ht !

he was texting me about it too. I did reply saying it cannot possibly be a red card offence. But pundits are paid by "interest factor", not by "boring laws" :sad:

 

[wibs]

he was texting me about it too. I did reply saying it cannot possibly be a red card offence. But pundits are paid by "interest factor", not by "boring laws" :sad:

Top class name dropping!

 

[Banana]

Top class name dropping!

You obviously didn't see Northampton Bee's posts

 

[wibs]

Yes but talk about putting me in my place. I watched MA on telly, but you received a text from him!

Mind you, my telly IS HD!

 

[Banana]

Yes but talk about putting me in my place. I watched MA on telly, but you received a text from him!

Mind you, my telly IS HD!

Pah! mine is 55". And that's just the TV

 

[wibs]

Thought Mr Moss refereed the game well today. Considering Turnbull should've been sent off and Harlee's handball for a definite penalty, probably evened itself out in the end!

He's reffing the qpr v norwich game at the moment and again he is superb. Letting it flow but at the same time clearly in charge and getting everything correct.

 

[ladbroke]

Only one mistake I think was when he penalised, and booked, Michael Turner. Thought that was a good challenge.

 

[wibs]

Only one mistake I think was when he penalised, and booked, Michael Turner. Thought that was a good challenge.

They didn't mention it at the time but I thought he lead with his arm.

 

[Salford Bee]

A totally inept performance from a so called referee. Disgraceful.

I hope we never see Tierney again.

ps I do sometimes wonder if the ref dislikes us for such poor facilities?!
pps I understand the lights went out in Orient's changing room at half time and they also complained about the floodlighting. Maybe the ref felt sorry for them? :mad2:

...............appalling..............

Awful

Disgusting performance in the second half bordering on corrupt. fed up of useless officials at this level ruining matches.

Did bidwell deserve two bookings ? Hard to see from where I was. Kicking the ball away and I'm told shirt pulling? Forget the other ones the ref didn't give against them. Did Jake deserve the two bookings. Game changer!

What an utter ****, really hope he gets sacked the useless *****

Was actually in disbelief at some of the decisions he was making... speechless

Four key decisions went against us tonight with all occurring in the second half:

1) The blatant handball by their centre back Baudry. Punched the ball but that obviously isn't enough to warrant a penalty.

2) The phantom second yellow for young Jake Bidwell. Blew up for a very soft challenge, however once realising that the player had already been booked couldn't wait to produce it again and send him off.

3) The ex-bee (and notorious diver) Charlie Macdonald throwing himself to the floor and subsequently conning the feeble excuse of a referee.

4) And perhaps the most worrying of the night. Their goalkeeper Jones assaulting one of our ballboys for not returning the ball quick enough. It will probably not make the referee's official end of match report and he's walked off scott free. Unfortunately, for these incidents in the lower leagues, the culprit is never reprimanded.

I was at Millwall v Hull today and as soon as I saw that Tierney was the referee I thought 'oh dear'.
Hull player kicks the ball away right in front of the referee early in the game. No booking this time.

Worst ref I've seen all season.

 

[GP200]

I was at Millwall v Hull today and as soon as I saw that Tierney was the referee I thought 'oh dear'.
Hull player kicks the ball away right in front of the referee early in the game. No booking this time.

Worst ref I've seen all season.

..............consistently poor then.............

 

[Boscombe Bee]

Thought James Linnington was pretty sound yesterday, tried to let the game flow despite the pitch. Ref Ive always rated, has mysteriously been missing most of the season (im guessing injury)

 

[North London Bee]

I have always thought Linington was pretty poor and pedantic and never really given us anything

Any thoughts after yesterday?

 

[Holysmit]

Thought James Linnington was pretty sound yesterday, tried to let the game flow despite the pitch. Ref Ive always rated, has mysteriously been missing most of the season (im guessing injury)

I always thought he was pretty poor when I've seen him in the past but thought he was much improved yesterday. Let the game flow more and seems to have calmed down on throwing out the cards.

 

[The Pipe]

Not helped by a pretty inept linesman yesterday